Ep2 - "Scene Negotiations for Safety and Profit(?)" with JustRob

Ep2 - "Scene Negotiations for Safety and Profit(?)" with JustRob

Negotiations make up the backbone of your scene. This presentation will cover the why and how of one of the most important parts of the BDSM community, as well as, discuss techniques and address questions for negotiating varied types of scenes including; heavy impact, blood play, edge play, and more!

JustRob (He/Him) has been active in the community since 2008. He identifies primarily as a Top and a Leatherman, but on occasion takes on the roles of Sadist, Dominant, Leader, Mentor, and Teacher. He is especially passionate about and active in the local polyamory group. His areas of experience are primarily in; impact play (everything from fists and palms to whips and everything in between), electricity (specifically the violet wand), and medical play (focused on play piercing and staples), in general, he is a reaction junkie who craves blood and other bodily fluids. Overall, however, his passion is helping people find their way in this lifestyle and helping those who have already found it to navigate it safely and grow personally.

• HouseOfJust.com
• Fetlife.com/JustRob

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SINagogue hosts and guests are subject matter experts but not *the* expert. We believe outside of violating consent, there's no wrong way to kink except to think your way is the only way. The show is presented from a RACK (Risk-Aware Consentual Kink) point of view, not SSC (Safe Sane Consentual) because each person’s definition of safe is different based on their risk profile. Use of the word "safe" on the show fits our definition, and that doesn't have to be your definition. 

Reminder, we try to make our content as inclusive as possible regardless of gender, orientation, role in the lifestyle, etc., but we do inherently speak from our own point of view. We want to learn from our mistakes. If you feel like we said something offensive, let us know. Reach out via our website or call us at 469-269-0403.

Today’s show was brought to you in part by the letters S and M, and the Number 69. 

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Transcript

1:14

Hosting with me today is my partner, my ADHD squirrel wrangler, my submissive, my brat, my little, my pony, or just my little pony. The sunny to my share, little bit. Hey everybody. This is episode number two and with me today is just robbed. You talk about scene negotiations for fun and profit. Negotiations make up the backbone of your scene. We'll talk about the why and the how of one of the most important parts of the BDSM community, as well as discuss techniques and address negotiating varied types of scenes, including heavy impact, blood play, and edge play, and more. But first, a word from our sponsor. Just robbed, he/him has been active in the community since 2008. He identifies primarily as a top and a leather man, but on occasion he takes on the roles of sadist, dominant, leader, mentor, and teacher. He is especially passionate about in active in the local, polyamory community. His areas of expertise are primarily in impact play, everything from fists and palms to whips and everything in between, electricity, specifically the violet wand, and medical play focused on play, piercing, and staples. In general, he is a reaction junkie who craves blood and other bodily fluids. Overall, however, his passion is helping people find their way in this lifestyle and helping those who already have found it to navigate it safely and grow personally. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here in the synagogue, Rob. Tell us more about scene negotiation. Sure. One of the things that sort of, I've always kind of been squicked out at is the whole checklist thing, right? Now don't get me wrong. I am an ADHD person and I'm a checklist person, right? But one of the things that I think is really fun about negotiations and one of the things that I think can be really useful is the fact that we are having a discussion with a person, right? The act that we're not just checking boxes off, right, that we're not just, hey, do you like this? Select yes or no, right? For folks that I think are probably R-AGE, right? Remember the little things in school you made with the out of paper that you put your fingers in, that you moved your fingers and you, you know, the little, like, the little Pac-Man looking thing that you moved your fingers in and out and you selected one and you opened it up and it unfurled like a flower thing, right? I feel like that's kind of what people are doing and it's like, okay, but not even not as interesting as that, right? I think of it kind of like, my brain thinks of it kind of like it is information gathering, but it's fun, it's for play, right? And there's lots of information that you can get by talking to someone and by looking at how they react to the conversation, right? And yeah. And seeing how that conversation branches based on reactions and based on answers rather than just this kind of scripted like, you know, customer service phone call kind of, you know, what's the next, what's the next question on the script kind of response, right? So, so I, so I really kind of advocate for people, you know, those things are fine, right? You should definitely have a clear picture about, you know, when you negotiate with someone, you know, what it is that you want and what it is that you're prepared to do and what it is that you're good at and what a reasonable expectation about, you know, what are my skills, right? What am I good at versus what am I less experienced at and what am I comfortable with versus what am I less comfortable with? All of those things that would be on that checklist, right? That information is pertinent, right? It's just the way we go about expressing that to others and the way we go about acquiring that information from the other person or persons that I think really, I think will sometimes make or break what we're doing, right? It's a way, we can get the other person super interested, sometimes more interested in what it is that we're doing, then, then simply the idea of the thing itself by how we go about doing that, right? And so I think that's sort of my intro into this is to say, this is a conversation, right? This is a chance to do some four play, right? To sort of, you know, if you, if that's what you want to do, right? To start. It's almost the start of things, right? You know, you know, if that's how you play and if that's consensual, right? It can be the start of things, right? But it should be, I think for me at least in the way I play and the way I like to approach this, it should be a conversation rather than a sort of, you know, sliding a piece of paper across the table sort of, you know, we say negotiation, right? And it makes it sound very clinical, very, very cold. Like it's, you know, like we're, you know, trying, you know, negotiate a, you know, an interest rate on a, you know, on a used car, right? You know, and, and, and, you know, I mean, if that's your kink, right? You know, if you've got like a paperwork kink or, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, a hardline negotiation kink, like, no, sell, sell, you know, like, I'll take no less than 25%. You know, then the great, then do that. That's cool. But like, I think most of us are in it for something a little different. And I think we should think, we should, we should not think about negotiation as this thing that's necessary before we start playing and before we start getting our rocks off. And, and, and we should see it as a part of what we're doing, right? We should see it, we should see it not as a necessary evil, not as this thing that we have to do to have fun, but a thing that is part of what we do, right? Yeah. For sure. And then people would take it more seriously, right? And people would, people would, would invest in it, right? Invest in the quality of it, right? And, and not just see it as a thing they've got to get done, like, it's not just a eating their vegetables thing, right? But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, start taking it not only as a thing that I have to do, because I have to do it, or seeing it as a CYA, like, as a cover my ass kind of thing, but see it as a thing that they want to do and that they want to be good at and that they want to be inclusive and that they want to be successful at, right? So, making it a conversation so that way it's enjoyable and fun. Absolutely. There's a, I mean, you know, there's a level of, I think, at least for me, right, whenever my best scenes are with people who I have a connection with, not just a do we want to do the thing, right? But that we're both really, we're both really there. Right. That like, we both, we both, well, I mean, for one, we're both getting what we want, right? But not only are we just getting what we want, like, not only is it a successful transaction, so to speak, right? But that it, we got more than we wanted, right? Like we took something away from it other than the, we took memories away from it, not, not sensations. Yeah, not checking off the box. The lists are great, but checklists aren't enthusiastic consent. Absolutely. That's what I meant. Yeah, that falls in a lot to that. Reactions, right? A lot, at least where I am in my journey, a lot of what I do is stuff that people are not sure about. There are things that people have convinced themselves they want to try, but are not, and they're doing it for the first time, right? And so, so, you know, they come, they come up to me and they go, oh, like, you know, I saw on FetLife that you do stuff with barbed wire. Like we should play. Oh, okay, so you want to do, you want to do some barbed wire, okay? And so, like, you know, we show, you know, we, we start talking and stuff. And, you know, I start asking some questions about what they want and what their intention is and how we expect this to go, right? And you know, you can tell from their body language and from how they're answering questions and things that this has become real, right? That this is now no longer just an idea, right? Like, but now, now there's a thing in front of them where this idea has been started to become manifest and now they're having to go in their head, not that I'm some like, like, scary monster or some badass or whatever, but just, but just that, like, you know, no, they've taken steps to make a thing that was in their head real. And now they're having, that now, and now they're, they're having to deal with that reality, right? And so it's one of those things where, you know, to, to your point, Rabbi, you can say, you know, you can ask somebody a question and you can get, you know, yeah, I want to do that. Okay. You can, you can get a, uh, yeah, I want to, I want to do that. Oh, okay. Well, but, but, but do you really? Like that, that doesn't sound, that doesn't sound like a yes, right? You can get a yes that doesn't sound like a yes, right? Or you can get a yes that sounds enthusiastic, but doesn't look enthusiastic from their body language, right? You know, shoulders slumped, right? Not making eye contact. Sure. In our world, that, that's not always a great indicator because sometimes that's just people's natural affectation, right? But you have to take the whole totality, totality of it into consideration. But yeah, absolutely. Certainly if you're just, you know, checking boxes off on a form like you're filling out, you know, an application to rent an apartment or whatever, right? You know, unless you're checking how vigorously they're, you know, checking the box or, you know, filling in their hard limits list, right? It's certainly much more difficult in my experience to ascertain, you know, their level of enthusiasm, right? Their level of how invested they're in this, in that context, right? Yeah, absolutely. It's about setting realistic expectations and for me, it's about setting, it's, you know, it's interesting. People perceive negotiations about, it is about getting a yes, but for me, it's about setting, setting out, right? Giving people the ability or these points where it's easy for them to say no, right? For them to see that they should get out, right? So yeah, so as that progression happens, if they're feeling that way, my goal is to give them the chance and to make it as easy as possible for them to go, you know what? This sounded like a great idea and I was really enthusiastic about this, but you know what? I'm having second thoughts because I'd much rather them tell me that than us go forward with something. And whether that has any impact on me or not, it's not a CYA thing on my perspective. I don't, I'm not worried about like my reputation or I don't want people to do stuff they don't want to do, right? I don't want people to have a bad time. I don't want people, you know, I don't want people to feel coerced or people to feel like, oh, well, I did it because I didn't want, you know, I tell people and people look at me weird. When I say this, I say the only way that you're going to disappoint me is if you don't tell me no, or you don't, like if I find out that you continued playing or that you went ahead with this and you didn't want to, that's the only way I'm going to be disappointed right now. Yeah, you've described yourself as a reaction junkie and I love that and I've described myself the same way after her and you use it, but you're looking for that good reaction, not a forced reaction. Yeah. Or at least show in some way that they are going to stick up for themselves, right? Advocate for themselves in some way, not in a confrontational, like, well, I'm bad and they need to protect themselves from me. But what we do is dangerous and what we do can is always, everyone always needs to be looking out for themselves because there's always ways in which even when we have the best of intentions, things can go wrong or there can be oversights, right? And so, and so like you said, Rabbi, I need people that I'm playing with to overlook the who I am and to be able to advocate for themselves, to tell me, hey, like no, or, what we need to stop or, you know, whatever that is, right? For both of our safety, right? Not just for their safety, but for my safety and for everyone's well-being and until, because there is inherently a power imbalance in lots of different ways, not just the top bottom dumb sub part, but I have to, you know, I have to acknowledge, you know, me being someone who is a presenter and a teacher, you know, who, you know, goes to events and someone who, you know, people see on fat life and online doing things. There's an inherent power imbalance through that. There are, you know, sort of societal power imbalances based on my, you know, gender presentation, based on my, you know, all sorts of things, right? So I have to acknowledge that there are, you know, power imbalances that exist that might make that more difficult than I would, than I would see it as, and I try to make sure that I'm creating as open of a place environment as possible for that, for that empowerment to exist. Just making it known that like, hey, we need this, right? And that, and that, I need, I need that from you to, to do that. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I've always said I don't completely trust a play partner until they tell me no on something. So I think that's very important to do in the negotiation process. Well, I think, I think the, the, the very first thing for me is who initiates it? Right? Whether it's the, the top or the bottom, right? And for me, I think, I, I mean, for me personally, right, the, what, how I do things versus how I would say other people should do things is probably a little different. Only because the way I play now, because of where I am in my journey has kind of changed a little bit in that, uh, there's very rarely for me personally. There's very rarely any kind of discussion about what is going to happen. Mm-hmm. Because usually people are approaching me to play and usually they're approaching me with a very specific idea or, or sort of, uh, like dance card that they have in mind, right? So rarely, so rarely do I need to do a lot of negotiating about the what, right? A lot of it is just practicalities, right? Like people will say, oh, well, like, uh, I want to do a saline infusion this weekend. Well, sorry, I don't have my stuff with me. That's important. Okay, well, then that sort of puts that into play, right? But, um, or well, let's, you know, can we do some barbed wire? Well, like, we're at an event and like, you know, we can't really, we can't really get that messy here. Okay. All you have the information to know. Yeah, you know, stuff like that, right? But, um, so, you know, whereas other people might, you know, other people will certainly, um, have to do that kind of legwork, right? As to like, well, you know, okay, what, what, you know, what are limits and, you know, what do you want to do and what is okay and not okay? I don't really do much of that anymore because basically everything that I'm doing that's not with established partners who I have established relationships and negotiations and agreements with is very limited in scope. Um, but, um, certainly if that weren't the case and when that wasn't the case in my life, you know, the first thing was obviously, well, you know, like, what do you, what do you want to do? Like, what's, what's on the table here? Um, now a lot of, of it for me is focused on a lot less on sort of what our boundaries are and a lot more about what is it that, uh, you want. Meaning, what is it that, um, what is it that you want to experience? Right? How is it that you want to feel? Check. Why is it that you want to do this? Right? Why me? As opposed to anybody else, right? Uh, a lot less about the sort of practical details and more about the, uh, uh, uh, uh, I think about it as like, well, what does this, what does success look like here? Right? Like when, when you start, when you sat down and started talking, you probably had a picture in your head of what the outcome looked like. Right? Like what you wanted this to be when it was over, right? I want that. I want you to tell me what that is. Right? You know, I work from there and figure out what, what, you know, how to make that happen, right? Well, in some of the time, some of us don't even know, like, what it is that we want and, you know, how to tell you. Right. And, you know, figure out where that matches what my desires and my skills and my capabilities are. Right? It makes it sound very service topi, right? But, but what it really is is saying, okay, well, like this is what you want, right? And, you know, a lot of that sounds really hot, right? Or somebody comes to me and says, oh, this is this, my picture for this and I go, God, that sounds, uh, and my head is, is saying, ah, that sounds boring, right? And so then, and so then my brain goes, okay, well, how do we? Well, you know, what is the important part here? Like, what's the intention? How, how do we change this so that I'm interested in it too? Let me start making suggestions. Now we start negotiating. Now we start trying to figure it out, right? But if they come to me with something and my brain goes, yeah, that's fucking hot. Let's do this. Let's figure out how to make that happen, right? Well, then they've done a lot of the work already. Now it's just, now it's my job just to figure out, okay, like, you know, what are the edges of the sand box, right? Where are the, where, you know, like, where are the, where are the no-go zones? Like, you know, where are the no-bits, right? You know, and then how do we get there? And, you know, what are the, what are the ways in which we're going to, you know, tumble out, right? Right? What are the ways in which we're going to pop the bubble too soon, right? And so, and so that's kind of the way I approach it, kind of a end back rather than beginning forward. Just because I think the beginning, if you think about it theoretically, the beginning is so wide open. Sure. And I think so many people get stuck because if you start negotiating from the beginning, like, we could do anything, you know, and what do you want to do? Well, it's kind of like the, the, the, the couple that's sitting at the house trying to figure out what to eat for dinner, right? Well, what do you want to eat? Well, I don't know. I know I just don't want to eat, you know, Mexican because I went out with tacos with my lunch friends for lunch, okay? Well, not Mexican, okay. Well, yeah, but, you know, like, I had pizza, they had pizza at work today, so I don't know pizza, okay? So, we've established we don't want pizza or Mexican, and then that's it, right? So, what are we going to do for dinner? Okay, well, we're going to have not pizza or not Mexican. Roll the dice. Okay, well, what does that mean? What are you eating? Right? But, you know, if you work backwards and say, well, I'd really like to have some pasta. Okay, well, okay, that's a start. So, let's work backwards from there, right? I think people get really, really sort of bogged down in how wide open working from the beginning to the end or working from the beginning of the story to the end of the story is because the beginning of the story can start in so many different ways. Sure. Oh, so, you know, like, for those of us who might be not sure or, you know, don't know what the end of that looks like, you know, still having that conversation could still be helpful even if you don't know the end goal because say you haven't tried this new implement before and you just, you don't know what the end is going to be, something like that? Oh, absolutely, yeah. And the other thing I want to say is that it's okay if you don't know what the end of the story looks like, you know, like, if it's okay to say, like, what I want out of this scene is to explore something. And I don't know what the end looks like, right? You just have to understand that your expectations need to be different if that's what you want, right? If you have expectations about what the ending looks like, you need to be honest about the fact that you do have those expectations because a lot of what I find when people don't have their expectations met is that they want people to believe that they don't have those expectations, but secretly they do. And so what happens is their expectations aren't met because those expectations are not, they're not expressed. Sure. Because they really want to do the thing, but they're afraid if they express expectations that the thing won't be done, that they'll be extra, right? They'll be, oh, well, this person won't want to play with me if I express what I really want, right? But then they don't get what they want because they didn't actually say what they want, and then they're upset that they didn't get it. So it's okay to say, you know what? I think the idea of flogging is really hot, right? I'd like to, and you are someone who is experienced at flogging, and I am less experienced, and I would like to explore this, right? Let's set up some parameters where you can help me explore this, right? That's fine. You just have to understand that like if you don't understand where you want it to end, it could end in a lot of different places, and you have to accept that as a learning situation. Now that doesn't mean that you have to accept anything that you get. You still have rights. You still have, are allowed to set boundaries, right? And you are still, and you're still allowed to have a safe order. You're still allowed all of those things. You're still allowed to be safe and feel safe. But it means that you don't, you know, if whether you go into subspace or not, right? Whether you are turned on or not, right? Whether you orgasm or not, all of those things. If you don't know if those are possible, that's what you're here to learn, right? And so you have to understand that you're learning them, right? And so yeah, but even if you're less experienced, you can certainly go into this saying, hey, I want to figure out if I like this thing, or I want to figure out if this thing can make me come, right? And try to figure those things out in this framework. Yeah. You don't have to be doing something really edgy or on the more, you know, on the more edgy, edgy side or whatever, right? It's just a way that I think about it in terms of thinking about how to set, for me, it's much less about what you're doing and much more about how to set expectations, right? That's what the end of the story back perspective to me does is it sets expectations, right? Because ultimately we're all looking at the outcome, like at the end of the scene, right? We're all evaluating the outcome of what happened, right? And it's disingenuine of us to not say that we aren't, right? So it seems logical to me for us to start there if we have a reasonable idea of what we want that to be. Yeah, and a full disclaimer here, Rob does a lot of edge play type stuff for those beginners out there listening, all the same ideas still apply. And then, you know, I mean, within that context, right? I mean, you know, if anybody's ever done a negotiations 101 class, right? You know, you'll have all the same things still apply in terms of negotiating, you know, things, you know, triggers both emotionally and physical, you know, you know, medical, medical concerns, you know, whether they be, you know, current, you know, medical, you know, medical situations, current medications that you're on, past medical conditions, you know, things that might be, you know, situational mental health situations, either past or current, environmental conditions, you know, you know, sense, sense situations that might be of concern, you know, limits past trauma, past experience, you know, like with a lot of the stuff I do, right? I end up playing with a lot of people that are trying, like, sharps play again after a bad experience. And so I do a lot of talking with someone, these people about, well, why was it bad the last time? What made it bad? Like why did you not enjoy it the last time? Mm-hmm, right? Kind of trying to troubleshoot a little bit, right? You know, not necessarily, I don't see it as like trauma, right? I don't, you know, I'm not trying to pathologize people here. I'm not trying to, and I'm not treating anyone like they've got a past quote unquote, right? But you know, I, but I certainly want to understand people's experiences, right, and try to understand where they've been, right? And understand that that's a path that they've already gone down and that was not fun for them, right? And is not where they're looking to go again, right? You know, because I am looking to take them down a path, a new path, right? And they're obviously trusting me to take them someplace new, right? And they're trying this again, right? They're having the courage and, you know, the, and, and, and, and care enough about themselves in their journey to do this again, despite having had a bad experience, right? So I'm, I'm going to do everything I can to try to understand, you know, what happened the last time, right? To, to, to not do that again. If nothing else, just so that they don't have another bad experience or have the same thing, right? But, you know, so there's a lot of that. And I, I don't think that that's exclusive to Sharp's play, right? I've, I've, I've had those same conversations with people with about, you know, canes, right? And whips and violet wand, right? That's very common. I, I find with the violet wand, right? A lot of people who's first violet wand experience was someone who was over eager, right? And went too hard, too fast and like, kind of, and, and really soured them of it. And then they'll see me in the dungeon and I, rabbi, you, I, I know you do some wand as well. And so you've probably seen this as well, right? Yeah. You know, that like somebody will see us do some wand in the dungeon and they'll see how much fun we're having. And they'll go, you know, the time I did it, it wasn't, it wasn't that fun. And like, and they go, well, it looks like it could be fun. That could be me. I could be having fun like that. Maybe I'll give it another try, right? You know, and, and so then you have to figure out, well, why didn't you have fun the last time, right? What was it? And nine times out of ten for me, it's, oh, well, the person I did it with last time, they just got their wand out and they cranked it up the 10 and they just started zapping me all over the place and it just overloaded me. And I just like, I couldn't, I couldn't take it. That's like, well, like, that'll do it, right? So you know, it's just one of those things where, you know, from this perspective, right, it's trying to do all that same, laying all that same groundwork of just getting all of that same dos and don'ts, all that sort of baseline information you need, you know, that you would, you know, sort of do for any, any negotiation for any type of play. Still applies in this model of, you know, starting from the end, you know, conversationaly, right? We're just going to get, we're just going to get it, you know, we're just going to get it in a different way and more a conversational way, right? Yeah. The other thing that it really does is it allows you to have more of a conversation, right? So, you know, you can, you can sort of suss out, not just what is okay and not okay, but really what excites people, right? So not just that they'll accept something or that okay with something, but you can really start to get into inside people's heads about which of these things really like turns them on or excites them versus which of these things are just things that like they like or will accept. And there's been lots of times where I've figured out that the reason a bottom says okay to something in a negotiation is because they think that I want it. And not because they want it, because they'll react to thing A and I can tell that it's got their naughty bits all tingly, right? And then they react to thing, the next thing, lukewarm. And so I go, do you really want, like tell me about thing B, right? What, you know, and they go, well, you know, I've seen, you know, I know you've got a few or I see things about you online and stuff and like, you do thing B a lot. And so I figured you probably wouldn't want to play unless we did thing B. I'm like, that's not the question I asked you. I didn't ask you if you, I didn't ask you if you thought I would want to do thing B. I asked if you wanted to do thing B. And as a matter of fact, now I don't want to do thing B. Thing B is now off the table because now I know you want to do thing A and I want to do thing A too. And I want to do thing A more now because your little, your body language and stuff has told me that you really want to do thing A. And you're sort of ambivalent about thing B. And so I don't want to do thing B because I don't want to do something you're ambivalent about. But I want to do more of thing A because I know thing A is the thing that's really getting your naughty bits, you know, tingly. And that's the kind of, that's the kind of energy I think that you and I are, you know, sort of exchanging here right now. And if that's okay with you, that's the kind of energy I'd like for us to play with. Yeah, I mean, going back to the reaction junky label, you're looking for a positive reaction. You're doing something they don't really want to do. You're not going to get that positive reaction. Yeah, or at least the thing that is going to get the strongest reaction that I believe they are, they are okay with giving fair because I can, I can figure out how to get all kinds of reactions out of people. But I know some of those reactions they're not going to be comfortable with. Like I've had lots of instances where I figured out what turns people on, but I also have figured out that those people are not comfortable being turned on in the scene. So those things become a no-go place even though the back of my brain goes, "Ah, it'd be so fucking hot." You could get this person so fucking worked up right now, right? But then there's that other part of me that goes, "Yeah, but you know, that would make them really uncomfortable right now." And like they haven't said that you can't, right? But that's not, that's not, that's not the vibe here, right? That's not really what you want to do here, right? But there are oftentimes where the strongest thing I might get is frustration or irritation, right? I have a partner that I've been with for years and years and she is a heavy impact bottom and a lot of our impact scenes start with her being bound and her not being beaten for extended periods of time and her being very upset about it because now she has mentally worked herself up to do this hardcore impact scene where I and one are multiple of her other partners are going to beat her with these baseball bats and all of these things, right? And then I and her other partners then sit down and drink a coke and watch her and laugh at her as she is bound to a piece of furniture naked like yelling at us. That's fantastic. What are you doing? Why aren't you playing? Oh, well we are playing and you are too. You just don't understand it. Playing cards? Yeah. We are playing see how long it takes the Amazon to break the furniture because she is not getting what she wants. You know, and to me, I am playing. That is touching all the same buttons in my brain, right? As having someone on a table making them come with a violent wand. All the exact same buttons in my brain are getting pushed when she is bound to that furniture and yelling at me because she is pissed off that I am not there beating the shit out of her, right? All the same things in my brain, right? But I don't want to do that with everyone. Even though I know that I can evaluate people and figure out for most people what gets them at that to that place. That is not the vibe or the energy or the connection I want to make with a lot of people. Now some people come out the gate with kind of hard core, brat energy, hard core sort of fight back, play back energy. And we can say, hey, if that is what you want to do, we can do that. That is cool. We will do that. Yeah, so yeah, that is why I say I am a reaction junkie because, you know, sadist indicates that it has got to be about pain, right? Like a physical pain and for me it doesn't have to be about physical pain, right? It can be emotional torment, absolutely. So what are some red flags for you when negotiating a scene? Well, I mean, there is some of the typical red flags stuff. I don't hear it. I don't personally hear it much anymore just because the people that exhibit that kind of stuff just tend to get filtered out by time they get to me. But you know, the people who are misrepresenting their experience level, the people who have quote unquote no limits, right? Like that, that is, and I dislike the people who are sort of flippant about responding to that by saying, oh, well, let me, you know, grab my chainsaw or whatever. Like that's funny, but I don't think that that, I don't think that that teaches those people the context of why their way of thinking is dangerous. You know, I think the goal is that there are people out there that have, you know, the chainsaw in their trunk who are looking for those people who think that they don't have limits, right? And I wish that wasn't the case, but maybe I'm alarmist, right? Maybe I'm the stick in the mud that thinks that it's too scaly out there, but, but, you know, I think that those folks do kind of need someone to realistically help them understand why that way of thinking is, is, is dangerous. I definitely think that the one thing that does turn me off or that does give me pause is people who are over eager, people who are, they're looking to get, they're almost like they're infrentzy. Like, I just want to get, I want to get to the thing. I want to do the thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, we'll talk and stuff, but I want to, I want to do the thing, right? Because for me, the, the, the, the doing the talking stuff, like I said, is not, is not a thing that I have to do to get to do the thing. It's a part of the thing and it's important, right? It's not, it's not a, it's not a technicality, right? And so that, that, that gives me pause. Yeah. That, you know, I, I sort of have to evaluate that. And then, I mean, once again, a problem that, that I think I have and, where I am in my journey that a lot of other people don't have is just trying to evaluate people's motivations. Right? Um, I, I get a lot of people who, I go to an event and I teach and people are interested in playing with me because I'm there teaching. Sure. Right? And, and they're not really interested in playing with me. They're, they're interested in playing with just Rob, the, the guy on Fet Life, right? But like, not really me the person, like, they're, like, they want to play with my Fet Life profile. Yeah. Not, not me the person, right? So they're not, so they're not really taking a lot of what is happening seriously, right? Like, like, they, like, it's all happening in, in this cloud of, of, of, of, you know, a, an idea they have. And that, and that, I, I've had some pretty scary situations happen in the past where I, I wasn't super aware of that. Like, I thought that that was stuff that happened to other people, but not me. Like, I'm not, like, oh, I'm not, uh, Fet famous enough for that. Like, I'm not, I'm not, uh, important enough for that, right? Like, I'm not, uh, that, that happens to other people, right? That happens to the people on K and P. That doesn't happen to me. Um, but, but no, then it, it happened to me. And, and so now I'm much more aware of, and cognizant of people's, which is one of the things that reinforces that idea of starting from the end and working back, right? Because when you ask those people, well, what does the end look like? And you know, the end is, oh, well, like, you know, uh, I, I, you know, it's, it, and it starts to feel like the end is, oh, well, I go on, on Fet Life and everyone, you know, looks at the pictures of, of, of the needles you did on me and then everyone, you know, thinks how cool I am. Uh, yikes. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know. I don't, I'm not sure that that's exactly, uh, I don't think that that's, that's really a great, I don't think that's really a great ending to the story for me. Like not that I don't want people, like, if that happens, right? Like as a consequence of something that we do, great, but like, uh, I, I don't know, I'm not sure that I feel comfortable with that being, being the goal of, in this context, right? Like, I don't, I don't, I'm not comfortable being here to make you more popular. Yeah, I've had a little of that too. And I know that happens to people who are like locally famous, the dungeon owners and whatnot. Yeah. So those are, those are the big things. But other than that, like, you know, contextually, right? But I, I tell people, I've done sharps play with people who, oh, he, well, I'll tell, I'll tell you the third, the other thing. And then which is people who I believe are not being honest with me about the answers to questions about their, um, about things like their medical background. I tell us, and I, I tell people, especially when we're doing stuff like sharps play, I've done, I've done sharps play with people who are, uh, HIV positive that I've known are HIV positive because I know, I take universal precautions. And I know what my risk profile is. And I had a conversation with them and I said, listen, this is within my risk profile. And I know the, these are the precautions I'm going to take, right? And here's what I'm going to do, uh, to keep myself safe and to keep you safe. And here's how we're going to do this. And, uh, uh, are you okay with that? And they were like, yeah, sure, let's do this. And, and we did stuff, right? I also know that there have been people who have lied to me about their STI or, you know, bloodborne pathogen status to get me to do things with them. And, and that, you know, that, that's dangerous, right? And, and, yeah, and, and, um, so that, um, you know, and so the, the thing is is that almost any answer that you give me is, as long as I believe it's truthful or, you know, you've got paperwork to show me that's, that shows that it's truthful is a, is not the wrong answer, right? Like you telling me that, that, that you, you know, you're positive for some bloodborne pathogen is not, uh, a nonstarter, but me believing that you're being dishonest with me about something is, right? So I think, so that's a, that's the thing I like to reiterate is, you know, let's destigmatize being positive for some sort of the STI or bloodborne pathogen, but let's stigmatize the hell out of being dishonest about it. Sure. Right? Uh, don't lie to me about it. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna make you, you know, feel bad about whatever it is, whatever your status is, uh, whatever your condition is, right? As long as you don't lie to me about it when it's my safety and your safety, that's on the table here, right? That for me is a big one, and, and it's a big one for me because I do do a lot, uh, you know, I admittedly do a lot of a play that involves bodily fluids, right? So that, I think that's probably the other, the other big thing for me is just once again a lot of trust boundaries, right? You know, do I, do I trust that you'll tell me no, that you'll advocate for yourself? Do I trust that you're being honest with me when I ask you questions about those things, right? And, or had some, you know, are you well hydrated, right? You know, um, are you on blood thinners, right? You know, things like that, like, yeah, stuff like that, right? I got a, I got a, I got to trust you, right? And I, I'm typically a pretty trusting person until you give me a reason not to be, right? I try, I try really hard to, to be, uh, you know, a trusting person until I have a reason to not trust you. So I think the most important thing when negotiating a scene with somebody is to be honest and be truthful. We've all been new before. We've all not known what we're doing. There's nothing to be ashamed about there, even various diagnosis. There should be no shame there. You want your scene to turn out well and the best way to ensure that happens is to be honest with the person you're playing with during the negotiations, whether it's your shortcomings or something else. Be honest with it, be forward with it. Well, and even like, you know, if you're new about something and you're unsure of it, you know, to still be honest with it and open and, and such like that, you know, it may result in a yes to play. It may result in a no to play, but yeah, you know, having that dialogue would be beneficial. Safety first. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, every, all of us were new ones, right? Well, like none of us came out the, you know, came out the womb, like no one had to do this shit and no one that we liked it, right? We all had to, we all had to figure it out at some point, right? But, but, you know, for me, it's about, um, and, um, I'll use the cliche term. It's about creating a safe space, right? An environment where we can be honest about what our experience is and, and what our goal is here, right? And it's, and it's, and, and, and it's about, you know, as a top, if someone comes to me and says, you know, uh, I don't have any experience, you know, doing this thing. And I really, you know, just want kind of an intro thing and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, it's beholden upon me as a top to evaluate whether I'm willing to take that on because that's a different type of responsibility, right? And, and, and, and for me to say, okay, well, yeah, like, because, you know, that's, that obviously means that, you know, you was the top, have to change your expectations as well in terms of, in terms of what you're going to get out of it and, and not every, and, you know, not every top wants to take that on, right? But some people like me, I, I mean, I'm education-minded. I mean, we tell a story, um, my wife and I, um, we went, what was it? It was the, the, so it was the second time. So I went, I've been to beat me in St. Louis twice. The second time I went, uh, I was invited to teach. Mm-hmm. And I went to teach, um, and I also volunteered to DM. And, and my wife came with me. Mm-hmm. And I was DM-ing and, uh, my wife came into the dungeon while I was DM-ing and she said, uh, her DM shift is over like in 30 minutes, right? And I was like, yeah. And she goes, okay, well, when you're done, go back up to the room and get your toy bag and meet me in the, in the other dungeon. Uh, we got something to do. Mm-hmm. Uh, okay. Uh, okay. Uh, okay. So 30 minutes goes by. I get off my shift that go up to the room. I get a toy bag and come back down. And my wife is there, uh, with this guy, um, who looks like a deer in the headlights. Now my, my wife is, she'll admittedly tell you she is, uh, uh, uh, she calls herself an obnoxious extrovert.[laughs] She is the person who finds the person who doesn't have anybody to talk to and that's like her new best friend, right? Mm-hmm. It turns out there was a guy at this event who like, this was the first event he had ever gone to. And he, and he was a new, and he wanted to be, he, he, he, he styled himself as, oh, well, I, I, I think I'm a top and, you know, I'm interested in learning how to do impact play. But like, I don't have a partner and I just, I came here and I'm, I'm interested in learning about all this stuff and, and she got to talking to them and stuff and she basically was like, hey, so do you want to learn how to do that stuff? And he was like, yeah, but I don't have any toys and I don't like have a person and blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, that, that's fine. Well, we got all of that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's like, okay. And so basically, uh, she volunteered me and my toy bag and stuff into doing a thing where we basically taught this guy like how to do basic impact. And so we went into the dungeon and she, uh, stripped down and she demo-bottomed and basically I brought my toy bag out and I brought, vloggers out and, uh, a paddle and, uh, a cane and I showed him, hey, these are what these are and these are the basic techniques to how you use them. And then I used them on her a little bit and then I handed them to him, hey, use them on, use them on her. Hey, cool. And he started to use them a little bit on her and then she would give them feedback. Oh no, you can hit me harder or don't hit there or don't hit here or whatever. And, you know, by the end of it, he was, you know, flogging her pretty hard and, and all of this stuff. And by the end of it, he went from being like a deer in the headlights to having a wide grin on his face. That's awesome. That is fantastic, absolutely fantastic. And then the next day, he went to a vendor and bought vloggers, right? And, and, and I mean, it was just, it was great, right? And then like two years later, Karen and I were working on staff for fire, the Florida intensive rope experience in Orlando. And he came through the check in line with a suit with a full-size suitcase full of a hat. And was coming and was coming to a rope event with a partner. That's cool. And so he, he just, he, he, they had this experience and he just went from there, right? So it's this education thing, right? It's this like, do you want to help people? Do you want to, and so for me, it, I got to appoint in my life where like I had taken and taken, many people that invested in me. And then I got to a point where I was like, okay, that's it. It's my turn to, to give back, right? And so doing stuff like that was a way to do that. But also doing it, doing things like having scenes with, with bottoms who are trying to explore. And, and doing that kind of patience and, and finding joy in that as well. And once again, I, I don't think that tops who don't want to do that are somehow bad people, right? Like that, that, that, that's not what I'm saying. But there is a joy in it in me in, in being able to help people explore in that way as well, right? And, and providing a safe space for people to explore for that. But, but once again, for me, it's just a matter of us being able to create an environment where people can be honest about their experience level. And, and what they want and not be shamed about it, not be like, well, I'm the least experienced person in the room. And so I should just shut up.>> Absolutely.>> Well, no, like, you have a right to have experiences and to learn, and to, and to, and to have people help you too, just like everyone else, right?>> Yeah, I, I remember being at Beatme in St. Louis when you were there teaching. I think that was our first big event together as a couple.>> I think so. And I remember a dude who met that description, deer and headlights. And just being astonished by that. So I'm thrilled to hear more of that story. But also, a wonderful what your wife did to help teach. I think that's a wonderful way for anybody to learn, but especially an unattached male top to learn from a bottom who is willing to top from bottom. And tell how to do things and you're doing this right and you're doing that wrong. That's how I learned it was absolutely perfect for me. They were able to point me in good directions on everything when I screwed up, when I did things right. It was great. Yeah, or even like, hey, it's not for me, but like, I know a guy or I know someone. Hey, go talk to, or let me, let me introduce you to this person. I bet you they would probably, if you feel comfortable with them, I bet you they could probably help you. I love doing that kind of stuff too. Like, hey, I don't have the time or the bandwidth or it's not really my thing. But I know somebody, let me get you in touch with somebody. And maybe they can help you.>> Absolutely, we're a very education-minded community as a whole and always trying to help each other out and learn and that sort of thing.>> Yeah, I know. It's one of those of like, if I'm not a good fit, then let me find you the best fit of who might be the good recommendation. And such like that, I'm always appreciative as a bottom of even a top who says, no, I'm not the best fit for you. But here, I know somebody who might fit like what you're looking for and what you need. And topping from the bottom is not a bad thing.>> Oh, absolutely. I advocate for newer tops. Go find, if you can find a bottom who is more experienced than you and will give you that feedback or you can find one that like you can't break, right? Because they know, they've already been broken and they know how to prevent it, right? They know when to call red, like when you're gonna fuck up and break shit. And so they know when to call red and go, hey, listen, you were almost at the point where you were about the fuck stuff up. So let me tell you about how you were about the fuck stuff up, right? If you can find people like that, put your ego aside, put your will on the domley dom who's holding the whip right now, aside, and learn from them. Because they know and they'll make you better. I mean, I agree with you. However many more percent is possible plus 100, Rabbi, I agree. In my life, so much of what I know and understand has come from having experiences with people who bottomed for me or were in those situations who facilitated my learning and my growth in that way. And so yeah, but a lot of people I think have to feel this need either by ego or because they think it's the thing to do to sort of play, you know, play the game of of me, dom, you sub, right? Like, like, I'm the, I'm the top here. So I've, I've always got to know the most and I've always got to be in charge. And blah, blah, blah. I mean, that's kind of where that whole topping from the bottom thing comes from in the first place as far as I can tell is this whole idea that like the top has to somehow be superior in the whole thing, right? And when, to me, that doesn't exist topping from the bottom doesn't exist because, like, if, if, if, if the top is not like, if the bottom takes control from you, then you weren't ever really the top to begin with. And if, and if you're not willing, and if you're not collaborating with the bottom to have a scene right here in the first place, like, then, then I'm not sure that what you're doing is like BDSM.>> Something.>> I think you're doing something else. I'm not sure what to call it and I think if I were to, if I were to say what I think it would be really judgmental. So I won't, but, but, but what you're doing is not anything that I'm interested in doing, right? So, but yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it, I approach education, you know, in a formal sense that way. All of my classes, I, I, I always try to have a, a bottom who, um, sometimes we'll talk just as much as I do, right? Because, you know, early in my, in my journey, I sat in classes and realized that half of the people sitting in the audience with me were bottoms. And they were sitting in this class, listening to Sir Domly Dom top man talk about how great it was to be a top and how Domly Dom tops did Domly Dom top stuff. And they were waiting for the one little nugget of stuff from a bottom, or they were waiting for Domly Dom top man to let his, uh, slave slave slave bottom girl to say one or two things about what slave slave bottom girl, uh, felt, right? Um, and then we're disappointed when she was only allowed to be furniture and not allowed, and not allowed to be talky talk slave girl. Um, uh, and, and realized that like, you know, those bottoms were not being served by this education, right? And there was, so there was one whole half of the equation that was just like a race from the page. And so even in that respect, right? Like, you know, I can do all, I can talk all the top stuff and all the stuff that we teach. But I can't, I can't talk from the bottom's perspective. I don't, I don't take this stuff regularly, um, by choice or on purpose. Um, so, so, so, so, so instead I try to bring someone along who will demo and will, and his experience, then will answer questions and talk. And, you know, and I always try to leave an opening to say, hey, like, you know, we talked about this and this and this. Was there anything from your perspective that, you know, we should talk about that, that like I didn't cover because I didn't think about it because I'm, I'm Sir Domley Dom over here and not the bottom who is doing all the hard work. Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm very much the same way. I've only taught a few classes without little bit and when the few times I have, I felt like I taught like half of the class and the other half wasn't there. Having that other point of view, the bottom point of view, the submissive point of view, the female point of view, whatever it might be, absolutely important when teaching this stuff, otherwise there's a big hole. And yeah, it, well, it always, yeah, it feels like there's a big hole there. Like, once you start teaching that way, you realize that teaching the way that, like, you know, the way that, like, I came up listening to, just feels incomplete. It feels like, like, like, like, like, like, you only did half the job, right? Like, I can't, I just can't imagine doing it any other way anymore. And so like, if I, you know, if I'm in those situations like that, I just, I almost feel like I should apologize to the audience, like, you know, like the people who attend, like, I'm really sorry that like you guys didn't get everything that you should get, you know, because you're not getting the whole story here. And there's a lot of this that you guys should get that I just unfortunately can't provide you. And I'm really sorry that I can't. And like, I almost don't want to be doing this because, because, I can't provide you, all the context that I think that you deserve. Yeah, I mean, I can tell people that, you know, I've been told this happens. I've been told it feels this way, but it's completely different when you're hearing a first-hand account. And, you know, I think it's critical to have a good partner when teaching or doing a podcast or something to that effect. I mean, you know, we've gotten feedback before where we've taught the same class at like, you know, or two different times at an event or something. And if I wasn't there, you've, you know, said it didn't feel right, it didn't feel complete. And, you know, you've lost out on that whole perspective that I can lend from it from a bottom side and such like that, you know, it's one of those things. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'll often, you know, you know, kind of like, like, Rabbi indicated, right? I'll say, you know, like, you know, I've had partners and or people tell me X, Y and Z, right? But that's not nearly as powerful. As somebody who's actually felt it or done it, right? Because a lot of that doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't facilitate the follow-up. You know, it's like somebody has a question and then somebody answers it, but then that usually brings up a follow-up question in that in the original questioners mind. But if they're asking someone who's just, in the answer is just the second hand regurgitated anecdote, right? The person asking the question already knows that like asking a follow-up question is probably pointless, right? The likelihood that they're going to have, you know, context and a follow-up is. And so, you know, I just, you know, we do the best we can when we're constrained and we, you know, we can't have all the resources we need, you know, to do the best, give the best class that we can. But, you know, but it sure is, it sure does feel good when we can. So, as we begin to wrap up, is there anything else about negotiation that we need to cover? I don't think so. I mean, I think it's just, I guess what I want people to take away from is that, you know, the TLDR, I think is just negotiations. If you can start seeing negotiations not as like eating your vegetables, but as like the beginning of the meal, it'll make it so much easier and actually make it so much more rewarding. If you make it a conversation and not just this stale information gathering process, and if you know what the end of the story is, if you and the person you're negotiating or persons you're negotiating with, know what you want the outcome to be already, right? And you can start from there and work backwards. That often can be very, very rewarding. Gotcha. If somebody wants to contact you, follow you on social media. How do they do that? So, I'm on FatLife, just Rob, all one word, J-U-S-T-R-O-B, or you can go to my house website, so it'd be House of Just, so just like it's spelled, House of J-U-S-T dot com. We'll throw those links into the show notes. Thanks for coming on the show, Rob. You've been a great guest talking to us today about negotiation. For listeners, upcoming synagogues in-person and virtual classes on dollar store domination, chain-fisting, electric play, and much more are coming up, visit our website to find out the details on those. But that's it. That's our show. Say goodnight, little bit. Goodnight, little bit. Thanks, Rob. Thanks for joining us. Thank you guys.