Ep4 - "D/S 101: Introduction To Authority-Transfer Relationships" with Dave!! a.k.a. 20-20Hindsight

Ep4 - "D/S 101: Introduction To Authority-Transfer Relationships" with Dave!! a.k.a. 20-20Hindsight

We often hear terms like "D/S," "Authority," and "Power Exchange" when talking about kinky relationships. But what do these terms mean, and how can they apply to our daily lives?

Whether you're new to the idea of these kinds of relationships or you are a longtime veteran looking for a refresher, this guided discussion can help anyone gain a clearer understanding through the context of our personal experiences and stories.

Dave!! Aka 20-20Hindsight - Since entering the kink scene in 2008, Dave!! (he/him) has seen a lifetime’s worth of growth. As the former leader of St Louis TNG (for kinksters ages 18-35), Dave worked to bridge the age gap and provide a safe, welcoming, and valued resource to younger or newer members of the lifestyle. 

Dave serves on STL3’s Executive Board, currently as Chair of the Membership Committee. He is also a founder and Executive Officer of QaNDI - Queer and Neuro-Diverse Inclusion, a 501(c)(3) non-profit dedicated to education and creating more fully-inclusive spaces. Dave has taught classes for a variety of groups and organizations throughout the StL area and across the US.

• Fetlife.com/20-20Hindsight
• TinyUrl.com/DS-AT-101

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SINagogue hosts and guests are subject matter experts but not *the* expert. We believe outside of violating consent, there's no wrong way to kink except to think your way is the only way. The show is presented from a RACK (Risk-Aware Consentual Kink) point of view, not SSC (Safe Sane Consentual) because each person’s definition of safe is different based on their risk profile. Use of the word "safe" on the show fits our definition, and that doesn't have to be your definition. 

Reminder, we try to make our content as inclusive as possible regardless of gender, orientation, role in the lifestyle, etc., but we do inherently speak from our own point of view. We want to learn from our mistakes. If you feel like we said something offensive, let us know. Reach out via our website or call us at 469-269-0403.

Today’s show was brought to you in part by the letters S and M, and the Number 69. 

*San Dimas High School Football Rules*

Chapters

• 4:04 What is Authority Transfer?
• 8:44 Definitions
• 14:54 Know Your Role
• 20:06 Labels
• 24:09 The Candle Metaphor
• 26:54 Transfer Vs Exchange
• 31:37 The Biggest Mistake
• 39:33 The Same Action
• 44:42 OPP (Other People's Protocol)
• 53:25 Honorifics
• 1:03:09 Punishment
• 1:20:31 Inside The Kinkster's Studio

Transcript

1:14

Hosting with me today is my partner my ADHD squirrel wrangler my submissive my brat my little my pony or just my little pony The Cisco to my ebert little bit Hello everyone This is episode number four and with us today is Dave aka 2020 hindsight I always forget if it's 2021 or 2020 last And he's here with us today to talk about the topic of DS 101 and introduction to authority transfer relationships We often hear the terms like DS authority and power exchange when talking about kinky relationships But what do these terms mean and how can we apply them to our daily lives? Whether you're new to the idea of these kinds of relationships or you're a long-time veteran looking for a refresher This discussion can help anyone gain a clear understanding through the context of our personal experiences and Stories but first a word from our sponsor Dave aka 2020 hindsight Since entering kink scene in 2008 Dave he hem Hasena lifetimes worth of growth as a former leader of st. Louis TNG a group for kinksters ages 18 through 35 Dave worked to bridge the age gap and provide a safe welcome and valued resource To younger or newer members of the lifestyle Dave serves on STL 3's executive board currently as chair of the membership committee He is also one of the founders and executive officers of candy queer and neuro diverse inclusion a 501 c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to education and creating more fully inclusive spaces Dave has taught classes in person for a variety of groups and organizations throughout the st. Louis Missouri area and surrounding regions and online for groups across the United States in addition to being a pansexual polymorus rope slinging needle piercing boot blacking kinkster Dave also enjoys cigars whiskey the rocky horror picture show resin crafts and tabletop RPGs he can be found on fettlife at Fettlife comm slash 20- 20 hindsight Thank you for having me it's great to be here. Thank you for being here in the synagogue Dave Tell us a little bit about Authority transfer relationships Well, it's a very broad and flexible category As it kind of said in my class description, there's a lot of ways we can do it and a lot of ways that people can build the structure of their relationship the the 10-second summary I just kind of define a DS relationship is any interaction between people who have negotiated some transfer of authority and agreed to take on some form of dominant and submissive roles regardless of the specifics of those negotiations so whatever for example type of relationship structure the two of you have if you consider it some form of DS or authority transfer relationship maybe very very different from mine or from anybody else's But it's just as valid if that's what the two of you have consciously decided to build and work towards Absolutely, I like to use the term authority transfer instead of Power exchange they are pretty related, but I do think there are some subtle differences that I like to point out Power is simply the ability to do something the ability to make an effect happen or do an action whereas authority is about the Right to decide if that happens or when or by whom so for good context Authority or rather power is the engine of the car But authority is the driver turning the key it doesn't matter how much power that engine has until the driver sits down and decides to use it that cars not going anywhere I Like that description. That's that's a very nice. It's a subtle but important distinction because then when we can talk about things Because it's it's trans the transfer is in the authority one or perhaps more depending on how many people are in the dynamic Shorthand I think today we're gonna refer to as two people obviously it can be more Depending on the people involved in what they want sure since we're largely talking about a dominant party and a submissive party I think shorthand we're just gonna kind of hand wave and assume we're talking about a two person dynamic today The power is always there Everybody has the ability to do things to do Whatever actions to affect the relationship they have an important part of the relationship in that balance It is it's not a zero-sum game Ideally we should all feel empowered by our relationship The authority is what's transferred because one party is Giving up or seeding some measure of authority for the other to take on So the two are definitely related terms but different And a practical example of the two In my relationship with my partner one of the rules we have in place is that they cannot drink alcohol without my permission They've got the power to do so obviously my partner under their own power can go to the refrigerator open up a beer Drink the beer, you know metabolize it everything like that. That's all the power. That's the ability they have They don't have the authority to do it without my approval I have to say yes You can have a drink before they're allowed to so that's kind of a practical real-world example of the difference between power and authority within a relationship like this and that's something that the two of you have negotiated out for that authority transfer Yes, that particular rule is something that we discussed many years ago That is not something that applies necessarily to any other relationship many of which don't necessarily even have explicit rules or any specific Notify details like that and that's okay. That's something that we specifically Packered into our dynamic for our For our own needs cool Thank you. I think a Lot and I almost I feel like I almost want to back up here because I want to kind of create a couple of more working definitions Because a lot of the terms we're using are either very broad and generic or Have a lot of analogs and other people may use a different term for essentially the same thing So when I'm referring to dominant and submissive in this context that's a descriptor as I said of Authority exchange in this case But it's not necessarily personality descriptors. Okay dominant personalities people who are outgoing maybe Bold big in control like to be in the spotlight Anybody can have a dominant personality regardless of their role within a relationship or the authority they have in their relationship I've known plenty of people that I would very much describe as The submissive in their relationship, but they are a dominant personality. They are often the ones in the spotlight in charge running things making things happen So as an adjective it can describe a personality type as a noun We're using it to describe someone who has or prefers to have the authority in a negotiated relationship And submissive is the counterpoint to that as an adjective it can be a personality descriptor someone who may be more quiet meek reserved with drawn or held back may not want to be in the spotlight or taking action Whereas we're using it as a noun to simply mean somebody who has given up or prefers to give up some measure of authority in their relationship submissive personality does not mean they are submissive in the relationship and vice versa and you know switch is a very broad one because there are many different ways that can apply as well because some people may switch between top or bottom when it comes to Activities or play who's giving who's receiving they may switch authority and and switch from dominant to submissive or vice versa in who has the authority and the control in the right to make the decisions Some switches may switch with the same partner it may be I'm dominant tonight and then next weekend you're gonna be in charge They may switch with different partners it may be I'm dominant with partner a and I'm submissive with partner b And we each have a separate dynamic like that Some switches it may be for certain activities especially in place certain types of play certain activities certain sensations You like doing some is a top you like receiving others is a bottom so Switch can be a broad category. I think it's really important for people to acknowledge that so if they meet someone or describing themselves and someone says I'm a switch That can mean more and one shouldn't immediately assume that I switch the same way you switch even if we both describe ourselves as a switch So that should be more of like a Let's have a conversation what a switch mean for you absolutely. I think one of the most important questions we can ever ask in in this lifestyle as a whole but especially when it comes to building these relationships these dynamics Between people the most important question we can ask there's two versions of it It's what does that mean to me and then what does that mean to you? To make sure that we're using the same words to mean the same thing If I say I'm a switch because I like to do some activities as a top and others as a bottom and you say You're a switch because you are submissive bottom to one partner and you are the dominant top to another partner if We're assuming the other is using the language the same way we are we could have a big disconnect if we tried to develop or build something So the idea of what does that mean to me and what does that mean to you is a very important question that I think Everybody should be asking regularly not just when Negotiate or building a dynamic but as they go and learn about the lifestyle in themselves and everything like that sure You know relationships It is we we tend to use it that term to mean The capital are relationships some kind of committed usually romantic long-term pairing But really a relationship is just whatever interactions happen between two people that are characterized by Some form of role that those are taking off those people are taking on relative to one another that doesn't always mean Dominant and submissive roles that doesn't always mean relationship romantically, you know I have relationships with both of you as my friends. I Have relationship with my sister our relationship roles are siblings so We can still apply a lot of this to To anything to any kind of relationship. What do we want out of this interaction? Even if we're just meeting each other and learning how to become friends These are still things we can talk about and what what do we want our friendship to look like or even things like that? Sure Yeah, the The other big one and I realize I'm getting off on a bit of a soapbox rent here But that's why you asked me to do this You knew what you were getting into is that Particularly, you know again, we're talking here more in the context today of Dominant and submissive as authoritative roles rather than top and bottom as Activity roles and the the kinky play stuff like that But I think it's still worth making the distinction that even though top and dominant are often correlated They are often found together in the same person. There is no inherent link between the two and same with submissive and bottom One is about activity the other is about relationship authority They are not inherently linked or required There are plenty of people out there that are Dominant bottoms they are the authority within their relationship, but they enjoy receiving the play or the sensations There are times for example There are some kinds of sensations that I enjoy receiving I am typically a dominant top and often the sadist But there are some sensations that I enjoy receiving is a bottom So if I tell my partner who I am the dominant party of I have the authority If I tell them go get the cupping set I want you to put cups on my back so I can feel that and then I lay down on the bed and they do that I'm still the dominant party there It's happening under my control my authority my instruction and they are following my will They are the top in that case because they are the one doing the sensation doing the activity that I'm receiving But they are no less submissive by following my command or instruction to do that So I think it's it behooves us to remember those are separate Spectra and often correlated but not inherently linked and there's plenty of people that only exist within one of those and not at all people that only have authority Transfer dynamics and have no interest in kinky player activities or vice versa. They're strictly kinky players They love the activities But they have no authority transfer relationship as well So a lot of people will use those terms interchangeably they will talk about oh this hot scene I saw in the dungeon where the dominant was beating the submissive with this awesome looking paddle they made They may not be dominant and submissive or it may not have been the dominant beating the submissive in that case so it does behooves us to kind of separate those two And there are a lot of other terms That may get used in place other people may use to identify themselves Instead of dominant and submissive there are other usually linked pairings that convey some measure of Relationship and authority dynamic whether it be master slave owner property owner pet handler and pet daddy mommy or daddy and And little or girl or boy anything like that. So when we're speaking again We're speaking in generalities today when I'm referring to the dominant partner if You identify as a master in your relationship feel free to substitute that term in your head for whatever helps you better contextualize it for your mind and your life You know, I'm not here to tell anybody Know you are this you have to use this term there and And especially because you know one of the most common questions that we hear is what's the difference between Right how many times you've both been you know around the country doing this stuff for for many years and teaching all kinds of classes everywhere You've probably heard a thousand times What's the difference between a dominant and a master? What's the difference between the submissive and a slave? And the real answer to that question is the only differences are spelling self-identification How one determines if they use one label over another or prefer one specifically versus others Why they use that label for themselves is can be completely different reason to anybody else and it doesn't Make one anybody more or less than another and The reasons that I might use to say I'm dominant might be exactly the same reasons that somebody else says I'm a master Sure, and then some third person could have completely different reasons for both all of those are valid I'm no less Or no more than anyone else just because we don't define them the same way for ourselves So again if you use a term differently for yourself and find as you're listening to this to mentally substitute your own personal labels for the equivalent labels we're talking about here today Absolutely do that if it helps you reframe and integrate everything we're talking about Yes Absolutely Labels are a great starting point people like to dismiss them and say well labels are for soup cans But it's still really helpful when you go into that aisle at the grocery store to see those labels and Know what you're looking at and they start broad, right? You can look at a labeling. Okay. All three of these are chicken noodle soup So broadly there's some commonality and then you turn it around and you look at the ingredients and you look at the nutritional labels and See how they differ and figure out if one is better or more right for you It doesn't make the other chicken noodle soups wrong. They're just different and not what's right for you Yeah, and there's a big difference between the instant cup of soups and the condensed soups and sure the ready and Yeah, and okay, do I want chicken noodle soup or do I want Beef and vegetable or do I want tomato soup or chili? We need these labels as a starting point so we can figure it out It wouldn't do much good if we walked into the grocery store and the entire aisle was just blank cans with no labels And we have no idea what we're getting and we're just gonna what have to open every single can there to find the soup we want That's not how it works labels are a very important part of our The selection process whether it be for soup or for finding a partner and a fulfilling relationship and finding ourselves It's a very important part to develop our self identity So I'm gonna jump back quite a bit here According to you how you define things authority transfer is a subset of power exchange am I understanding that correctly? Sort of I would say they more kind of run more or less parallel to each other rather than being a subset Because the power exchange it is Exchange we both want to be giving power into this relationship to make the relationship meaningful to make our partners feel meaningful and engaged in this relationship and Feel empowered right we want to that's the goal we want these relationships because we want to feel good and happy With each other by whatever measure or metric you're using for that kind of satisfaction happiness safety comfort whatever it may be We want to have good positive feelings about it and if my efforts that I'm putting into my partner and my relationship Make them feel good and then they feel good and want to put their efforts in powers into the relationship To make me feel good and make the relationship thrive That's exchanging power neither of us are losing anything It's creating more it's almost like Sharing a flame from one candle to another You're not losing anything from the first candle when you use it to light the second candle, but now you've got two flames and more light On the other hand authority one of us is gaining or Giving up some measure So that is kind of a zero sum game to go back to my earlier example my partner has given up the authority to make the decision for themselves Whether or not to drink alcohol that is authority that I have I have the right within our relationship to make that decision in this case It's zero sum they gave it up and I gained it So they authority and power certainly run alongside each other But I would say they are more parallel than one being a subset of the other So in the use of the candle example it would be literally like handing over my candle to you type thing Yes, yeah, that's a better way. Yeah, authority would be You don't get to light that wick until I tell you you can or I have to do it for you and If I for whatever reason deem so then no maybe you don't get the candle or I blow your candle out and you don't get that light in anymore That is Very different than both of us having and sharing and you know with with it being power We both have a candle if mine goes out you can light mine again as well from yours Even though I have authority That's something we can share and neither of us have to lose on either side Well, that makes sense. Thank you I think actually that's a that's a really good analogy and quite frankly that's not one I had thought to use before and I'm gonna add that next time I teach this class I think I'm gonna have to add that candle in there So thank you for helping me develop that's one of the things I love about Teaching and these kind of discussions is we're always refining in every single time I have these discussions There's a something little I can pick up and add and I know Every time I have a conversation with either of you or I'm in a class that either of you are teaching or you're in one of my classes There's always a little something different in new each time so Thank you for thank you for doing your part to to make our relationship that much better and Forfeited I feel better and more empowered because of your contributions. Oh, thank you You're very welcome. I am yeah I'm very much the same way in the day or two after a class is when I make most of my changes to my class notes and improve it for next time Well as I usually like oh hey, what was that that they you know Whomever had said either a participant or just how the discussion went between either the two of us or Who's never was presenting? You're like I like this this needs to get added for you know even my own class type thing yes It's always very helpful Yeah, there's a there's so much great information out there about in this case about DS relationships authority Transfer dynamics and everything like that There's actually a great quote. I want to share here that I've got in my notes that I read many many years ago on Fettlife from a writer known as inner mind That I think really sums up really well those distinctions between power and authority and transfer versus exchange and what he wrote was It's because the equality doesn't stem from the unbalance of power But it stems from the ability of two equals to unequally distribute that power Whether it's a temporary or longer term exchange It's still rooted in the fact that both sides are equal to each other Both sides are just as valuable no matter their role and more importantly both are absolutely necessary to one another in order for Their even to be a functioning dynamic. Oh, I like that I I think that's great and and kind of where I said what parts are zero some one party gains the other gives up versus both contributing It's to use another analogy. It's a lot like partner dancing ballroom dancing You tend to have a lead and a follow one may be in a little bit more control as the lead But they both have a very crucial role to play and it's the interplay between the two both contributing to make that dance work If one was you know if the follow was completely limp and passive It's not gonna be a good dance for the for the lead to just be dragging them limp around the dance floor They still have to contribute It'd be like dancing with a sex like yeah, yeah, yeah dancing with a mannequin is not very easy But at the same time the the follow is not passive they have to still be active and engaged with the dancing Respond to the lead's cues but also be offering cues of their own for the lead to respond to and Maybe together they figure out their balance in the way they move or as they move across this way of the dance floor or You're giving me signs for this kind of move and I I'm the lead, but I put you into this kind of spin or whatever it may be Both the lead and the follow have a crucial part and the dance would not work without either of them Both being engaged in that well, and you know even just watching You know as as an outsider being able to watch something like that you know not just in ballroom dancing but in you know seeing individuals who you know Participate in authority exchange that give and take those cues even if it's just subtle things You know being able to see something like that it when it's done very well. It looks like poetry and motion for me Absolutely in authority transfer relationships one party may still have the right to say Whatever it may be but ideally we would think as a good and conscientious partner They should be taking their partners state in the mind and sometimes it's just in a mood You're having a bad day whatever it may be so maybe I Need to use my authority to make sure that you're taking care of yourself. You're resting or you're Taking care of your mental health because you had a very stressful day or you're upset about something Now I could still say no, I said you need to do X so you need to do X But you know that's still part of an important part of a relationship is still responding to each others needs and Maybe they ask you know maybe maybe my partner Might not have the authority to say I'm staying in I'm not going out. I'm doing this But I want them to ask and then I can you know tell them Because I can see that what their needs are and make sure that I'm trying to Foster that in a healthy and ethical manner definitely chair. It's totally say that So what do you think the people's biggest mistakes are when it comes to authority transfer? That is an excellent question Broadly I think assumptions As I said earlier it goes back to what does that mean for you and what does that mean for me? And I think a lot of it assuming That we're using the words to mean the same thing or we're using You know, we may be using different words to mean the same thing We may be using the same word to mean very different things And if we don't talk about that and understand what each of us mean and figure out where we can Unify that then we're gonna have at best some friction and confusion at worst It's going to explode completely in a horrible mess What is You know, so it's a lot of it One should go into it first asking themselves all these questions So they know what they're looking for in their relationship in their interaction And then they have a baseline so when they start talking about these things With other people they know how they can fit that or integrate that into themselves So I have to kind of look at myself think about myself and say what do I need in a relationship? What do I want in a relationship? What do I know I don't want is there anything I specifically want to exclude or not have in the relationship? What do I bring to the relationship? What do I think I have that a partner someone else might be interested in or would benefit somebody else? and when I start to have ideas like that Then I can talk about those things and see if you're compatible in that way if we're starting to talk about some kind of relationship or dynamic is What you want out of a relationship compatible with what I want is what you need or what you don't want compatible with what I need or what I don't want It doesn't always mean the same thing compatibility may mean complimentary right Exactly like the authority transfer if I know what I want and need in a relationship is to be the authoritative dominant partner Then I probably don't want someone who wants exactly that same thing I want somebody that wants the compliment I want somebody that wants to be the submissive partner who has given me authority So sometimes it's what do we need what do we want and we need to find someone exactly like that? Maybe it's somebody who has the same hobbies as you somebody who has the same ethics or philosophies or political ideologies as you and we want someone That is like us for compatibility sometimes there are things we need someone who is very much not like us to make that compatibility and balance But I think assuming again when I say I'm dominant or I want to be the dominant in the relationship Does that mean the same thing to you? If I say I am a master I want to slave Well, what does that mean? What do I see in my mind's eye as what does a master slave relationship look like? What do I what's my ideal image of the day to day of that relationship? That may be identical to what you picture But you use the terms dominant and submissive or owner and property So maybe we were just using different words to describe the same thing But when we discuss it we find out we're actually very compatible and do want the same thing And maybe we just discuss the use of terminology and which one What term or terms do or don't fit us together? Gotcha I mean, I'm in my professional experience as a therapist people making assumptions about what terms mean with their partner of even 20 years Is the source of a lot of clonflict and a lot of relationships not just a power exchange or authority transfer relationships Absolutely, I mean we are still human there is still human nature and we are all you know fallible and prone to misunderstandings and confusion and error and everything like that So ideally we should be able to talk about that figure out where those disconnects are and how to repair or reconnect them Very fair Definitely and there's a lot of once we build that relationship and we figure out we are compatible And what we want to build or even we figure out where we aren't compatible and we figure out how to address that What are we going to try and change to build compatibility on or what are we just not going to handle and we're just going to exclude that from our relationship When we start building that then there's a lot of different Ways a DS relationship can look there's a lot of different Things that we can bring into relationships That as an expression of that dynamic you know Service is another term that is very commonly used in these contexts and that is a very very broad term and what it can mean What is service? what does That mean And that can be directly doing something for another person But that could be everything from the division of labor of housework right to do one of us have a specific duty to I'm the one that does the dishes or you're the one that does the laundry Or is it just done as it needs doing or is it done under instruction? Is it you do the laundry when I tell you you empty the cat box when I tell you um It can absolutely be an expression but any given service any given activity can be an expression of dominance or of submission or service right whether I say as the dominant party I say Go scoop the cat litter box or as the submissive You see it as an act of service to do it so I don't have to Either way the litter box is still getting scooped and it sure doesn't matter to the cat uh You know it's gestures, you know, maybe it's it's things like kneeling or people that like to integrate particular positions into rituals or presentations Not just kneeling. There are many others typically those within gorean relationships it is very common there is a whole series of kind of codified standard positions Some people that aren't gorean still use those or similar and that can be an expression of submission or service perhaps there's a particular way you greet your partner when they get home or a service provide you provide for your partner But again that service could be the submissive party serving the dominant party and let me do this for you But it could also be the dominant uh doing that and still serving services not a submissive only thing It may be an expression of care and control um Regardless of the actual activity Uh, I've known a few different couples over the years. There were in some measure of authority transfer That the same action of opening the car door They had very different Motivations around um No activity yet to to back up for a moment kind of the header of this is no activity Is inherently dominant or submissive it is only what the motivation or mentality is by behind why someone does it So in the case of opening the car door to get in the car one couple The submissive was not allowed to open their own car door They would stand there and wait until the dominant would come around open the door so they could get in the car For them it was an expression of control and you can get in the car when I say you can get in the car I will open the door to tell you otherwise you don't do it. Uh-huh The other couple The dominant would wait for the submissive to open their door that service for them was submission of this is something I can do For you I will open the door The dominant would stand there and wait until the submissive I'd even heard times where the submissive would get in the car Look over see the dominant still standing there outside next to the driver's side get out of the car have to walk around to open their partners door so they could get in Uh-huh. They each had very different Motivations behind it that were meaningful to them of who Had control or who gave up control or what Was one was serving another with But for exactly the same mundane action of opening the door and getting into the car Yeah, it's it's like the difference between a father opening a door for a child or a chauffeur opening a door for someone Absolutely those are both very Different relationships as we said going back earlier the relationship dynamic between apparent and child is going to be very different between Then the relationship between an employer and a service employee like a chauffeur and the person who is hired them to drive them around so The activity of opening the car door is going to be Very different reasons behind when each particular pair Decides who does or does not touch that door handed and there's no one wrong way to do that as long as it's meaningful between The people who it's been negotiated between and what they've determined to make it meaningful for them Absolutely, there's There's no one right way to do it all and there's no one wrong way Just because your way is different than mine or your motivation is different than mine doesn't mean either of us is wrong Uh, and there are those people out there that will see both of us as wrong, you know There's a lot of people where there's a million ways to do it wrong and only my way yes That doesn't work for a lot of us. I will acknowledge that what's right you is not necessarily what's right for me No, but as long as that doesn't negatively affect one another you can keep doing it your way I'll keep doing it my way and will both be fine there are Mm-hmm in some ways there's no wrong way to do it And I say that kind of with the asterisk of as long as everyone involved is consenting and acting ethically and it's been discussed at stutter up Yes, it's worth reminding people that none of this is being done unilaterally none of this is being done without engaged consent and discussion and negotiation um Because maybe you've discussed a negotiation and opening the card or it doesn't matter to either of you so it's not something you care to make a rule or protocol about Maybe housework or particular household duties One of you may have a specific reason maybe you really like to do the laundry because then you know it's getting done exactly the right way you want it done So you say yes, I will make the laundry my responsibility or I say no I hate doing dishes. I don't want to do somebody else has to do them Or maybe it's just a whatever the sink is full the dishes need to be done I've got a few minutes or I need stuff that's in there so I'm gonna have to wash them um So just because something is or is not important to us or the way we show that importance that care and who does what Doesn't mean anybody else doing it differently is wrong as I said either way The litter box still needs to be scooped and it doesn't matter to the cats how it happens True And and it's also safe to say like anybody who is not aware of your protocols or anything like that um Should not be How do I put this? What's between you and your partner um and what you've negotiated outside people aren't always going to Know and should not be like Frowned upon jumped on or anything like that because they have no understanding of what's been negotiated between the two of you They shouldn't be sticking their nose in your business. Yeah, that's exactly. Yep. Yep Absolutely like I said if it works for us in a safe and ethical and responsible manner It doesn't matter if you like it or not you don't have the right to tell me I'm doing it wrong or I need to do it differently But at the same time I think you actually Are kind of segueing to a good point something else that's common is What if we have particular rules or protocols That could affect others. How do we handle that? Uh, for example Uh, something that very maybe more common in At events in large gatherings of people at your kinky events your dungeon parties whatever it may be Uh, especially when people might be in a more High protocol rules or service oriented mindset with their partner because there's somewhere that they can do that in quote unquote public um Something say like speech restrictions. Mm-hmm. It's not terribly uncommon that there may be restrictions on Who a typically submissive party can speak with or if someone needs to have approval or relationship for uh, sorry approval or uh The go ahead from the dominant of that submissive before they can speak to the submissive. Mm-hmm It's You know if I went up to to Talk to someone not knowing that they had a speech restriction Mm-hmm If I didn't know that they can't get mad at me for not honoring their protocol No, uh, huh and at the same time I shouldn't get mad at them For having a protocol. I didn't know either That then becomes a dynamic and it may be as simple as Would you please go ask my master if it's okay for you to speak with me or maybe it's Let me go see you know, let me go talk to my master see if he will give me permission to talk to you, right? Maybe it's it's something like that and You know if it you know, I have the right Just as much as anyone to say No, that's not a protocol. I want to be part of and not talk to that person, right? If I don't feel I Should have to or want to go seek a third party's approval or permission to speak to someone That's that's part of the negotiation, right? They have put forth their terms I can choose whether or not to accept those terms and continue that interaction under these terms um Or it may be again the other way it may be I try to speak to someone they say I can't speak to someone without my master's permission Let me go get that permission or see if he will if they will give me that permission um And maybe the maybe the master says no don't talk to that person or yeah go ahead and find whatever it may be um If we know about them it is still Good and respectful to acknowledge that um Now that doesn't necessarily mean again you have to abide by that it may be I acknowledge that's a protocol you have That's not something I want to be a part of And walk away It may be That I'm willing to do that uh friends of mine that are uh in a Gorean master slave Like power exchange or authority transfer um They're both friends of mine But a few weeks ago Uh at a part year and event here in town Earlier that day the Submissive partner had posted on their pet life something along the lines of Master and I are going to be in gorean protocol tonight if you see me wearing Whatever particular thing they'll be wearing that means I am in protocol and please do not Talk to me without My master's approval So when I saw them at the party and the submissive was wearing that particular garment I knew what it meant for them I had every right For myself to decide whether or not I wanted to follow that protocol and seek the master's approval before I could greet her The submissive in this case it was a cis male dominant and a cis Female submissive so in this particular case when I'm using key and she that's who I'm referring to because it's specific Okay, these are not inherent to the roles right um But I knew They wanted before I approach her they would want me to have his approval or ask for his approval I had every right to decide whether or not I wanted to do that and I could have ignored them all night While she was wearing that garment if I didn't want to engage Now they're still my friends so I didn't mind respecting that because I knew it was important to them So when I saw them I made sure to ask him sure May I say hi to her may I talk to her? And we're friends we said yes of course and she immediately gave me a hug and and greeted me But I knew that was important to them so I could then factor that into whether or not I wanted it to be important to me Mm-hmm Well and in that aspect you're also respecting you know that they have publicly Well privately but publicly um You know stated ahead of time for those that you know know them and who are aware of who they are and You know as a couple that this was how the dynamic was working tonight so publicly Um being at an event You know this is how we would like you to approach us if you know us Um, you know if we didn't know you then You know we might not have been aware of that and you know Hopefully that's one of those like nice gentle corrections of like hey if you're not aware Yes, this is what this means and this is what you need to do would you like to continue further? Um, you know, which is super helpful and rather you know rather appropriate I have had the experience of walking up to somebody and saying hello Because I was going to be introduced to them And their first comment was I am a master you are a submissive. I'm not talking to you Um Not even where's your sir Um or anything to that effect and that was extremely off-putting for me in the sense of that your dynamic with you know How you interact with submissives I was being introduced to you as an equal because you know of uh The setting and where we were and such like that So that's one of those like I'm always in the back of my head of if I don't know or even if I do know that your master If I'm being introduced to you as an equal in that aspect at first like you know This is a different thing. We're not engaging that way. Absolutely. I I can't be Yeah, I can't be held responsible for not knowing what I don't know Mm-hmm and now in your example of uh I am a master. I will not talk to a submissive or slave I'm very glad that those kind of people are becoming fewer and further between They are the past I have met people like that that think Because they are A master or a dominant that they are somehow above All submissives or slaves or anyone that considers or anyone they see as lower than them Which is absolutely not true as you said we are equals Until we consciously decide to divide that inequality among us Mm-hmm. Yeah So that is something else I I want people to Think about and consider And both sides of that in the Just because I am dominant does not mean I have any Authority or station above anybody else Nor just because they are a master does not mean that they automatically have any authority or station over me You know kind of the the your a dominant but you're not my dominant Right and same as you might be a submissive you're not my submissive you we haven't discussed any kind of Authority transfer or you deferring to me so don't automatically assume that because I'm dominant that you should or must Act a certain way around me As we build a relationship or friendship or rapport and over time Then for us that may develop um I can think of of friends of mine that over time they they would still insist on calling me sir Because I'm dominant and and they are not so for them they always would And even though I never ask them too and in fact I would sometimes tell them You don't need to call me that I'm not your sir But as we got to know each other and built friendship over time I knew What it meant to them and as it was a sign of their respect for me as not just a dominant but as a person So I was willing to accept it because then it became something personally relevant between the two of us It wasn't calling me sir because I'm a dominant it was calling me sir because it was a person who has earned that respect from them Gotcha Yeah I was gonna say we've been in we've been in places where Rabbi and I are teaching and they have they've had folks who are the The serving Submissives for the weekend who are providing service of making sure rooms are set up and such like that And he always gives everybody a sideways look when they are like Is everything okay sir? Is the room to your liking sir and I usually get an eye roll and just a little sigh Because I know it from a different perspective uh From the leather from the leather community of of just you know Even general just calling folks sir if they even if they're Submissive as you know, you are the leader in the room as an educator you are you know helping do this that or whatever um But for him it is still rather amusing and gives him an eye roll and pause So I understand it from place of respect and I know he does as well But that is not how he identifies Yes And I've known the two of you we've been friends for several years now So if I call him sir Yes, we know it's all tongue in cheek for us and we will all have a laugh I will probably do it you know over the top end and very Egregiously Because I'm making my friends laugh That's the dynamic and the report that we have together and is very different than anyone else Calling rabbi sir Well, I mean for me there's two reasons I don't like it one sir rabbi just doesn't sound right at all Sounds almost redundant layering up the I hate to To conclude it and second most of the time when somebody's calling me sir They're following it up by you're making a scene and we're gonna have to ask you to leave You believe Sir not following the value you believe So I mean I don't Dislike it, but I yeah, I'm just not comfortable with No, I I totally understand and that's again, that's an important distinction is what's right for you What makes you feel good or comfortable or validated or safe whatever that Kind of positive feeling you're looking for what's right for you and if I Like to be called sir or only in certain contexts or only by certain people or don't like to be called or specifically tell people not to Any of that's okay because that's what right what's right for me if somebody for me personally if somebody feels That if it's coming from a genuine place and I can tell they want to call me that because it is a measure of respect for me Then I'm more apt to Accept it as a kind gesture from them Versus somebody that's doing it because they think every dominant should be called sir That's that's not what vibes with me If it's genuine and it's because of the rapport we have I'm much more okay But I also virtually another than my own partner that I am in a authority transfer relationship with There is nobody that I ask to call me sir. Oh, yeah, it's just for me Sometimes these titles are very important and very personal Master for example I am in a master slave relationship with my partner I do not want to be called master by anyone else I will specifically tell other people don't call me that even to the point where sometimes I have referred to that As a hard limit because for me that is a label associated with my specific relationship I am their master. I am not a master. I am not your master So it is no more in my mind it is no more appropriate for you to call me master Then it would be for you to call me husband because that's my relationship with them not with you Definitely makes sense Yeah, it's There's you know for me I've you know met some some individuals and they have been introduced to me as you know Sir so and so or daddy so and so or master so and so um And if I'm introduced to them as you know master as being their title then that's typically what I will use just out of You know not hey we're in this relationship together, but it's you know either a title that you have And this is how you're being introduced um, but if I'm introduced to even somebody with the title of master casually Then I am not going to just randomly pull out you know sir master whatever for the individual because that is not As you know we've discussed that's not you know what the engagement is or anything like that um, you know Right if they say hi, I'm master bob. I will play yes. Hi bob. It's nice to meet you They're not my master. That's not a station that they have relatively to me um, I suppose the one exception to that would Be again tongue in cheek doing it with the right people that I know would find it funny I suppose if I Hunch my back and say it like I go into his master and go slicking off then I might still call him Yes Don't be needs to give you a sock that's time to cheer you around Don't be surprised but again as established that's the dynamic that we have We know It's genuine friendship uh and we enjoy doing that but of course for ourselves But That's the rapport that we have built in the understanding that we have come to over the years as friends I might be inclined to call somebody master if their last name was baits Yeah Just maybe So I think sorry If we actually throw it back to one of your questions earlier rabbi about the The we were talking the assumptions And the the folly of making assumptions on how These kind of dynamics work There are a lot of other things that can be taken for granted That people assume Are a part of it or they have to do and many don't So Again because just because others do it doesn't mean you have to if it doesn't work for you like punishment dynamics for example Are something that many people quite frankly don't do A lot of people I think misunderstand punishment and reinforcement as a whole And The way they think it is or should be done Doesn't correct the problem uh at most punishment or a negative Consequence a negative reinforcement It doesn't reinforce the good or proper or correct behavior For the sake of itself It only Diswades the incorrect behavior often because you don't want to be punished again You fear that you you don't do the correct thing because it's good and correct You do it so that you don't get punished Um Whereas a lot of times if something is is Not being done correctly a rule is being broken or not being followed whatever it may be There's a reason behind that And it's something we might be able to discuss and address and fix so we can prevent it from being a problem Is it that I asked you to do something and you forgot? Maybe we need to work on Reminders or keeping Notes to to ourselves to remember to do things did you not have time? Maybe we need to work on scheduling and and use our calendar and our date books better to make sure that everything is still getting done in the right amount of time Or was it a willful disobedience did you deliberately decide i'm not going to do that thing Because then there's a different problem that we need to discuss and address so we can talk about it and Figure out what we can do maybe the rule was unsustainable Maybe it turns out that's a bad rule and that doesn't actually work and we need to figure out something else For that situation or whatever that rule was meant to handle or enforce Maybe we need to address it in a different matter and maybe the problem was actually with me I didn't give clear enough expectations or instructions of what I wanted done You know again you don't know what you don't know Can I get mad at you for doing the laundry wrong if I don't tell you what I see is the right way and how you will I want you to do it No That doesn't try the rule if you didn't know I can then give you specific instructions and specific detail for you to follow And then next time you can do it that way And if you don't we can talk about why did you forget maybe we need to write down the instructions Did you not have time maybe we need to see if we can schedule our day better whatever it may be punishment May not necessarily do anything to correct any of these problems In so much as it fixes the problem punishment just gives you something to avoid So that you're kind of you know it only makes you go right because you know you don't want to go left turn so Punishment dynamics are not something that everybody needs something a lot of people don't Um, it's usually an opportunity to talk about what went wrong and how we can fix it Ideally so it doesn't happen again, and it doesn't become a problem um There are some people that do use punishment particularly some sort of physical punishment whether it be Spanking or but it may also be things like more domestic discipline it may be sometimes even you know standing in the corner silently for a while or writing lines of I will not do X I will remember to do why a hundred times There are some people that use that so they can give themselves a sense of closure on the matter That's after they've talked about it They figured out what they can do they've done what they can to resolve But maybe there is still a sense of guilt or something where the punishment Isn't corrective it's symbolic. Oh yeah, it shows we are closing this we have dealt with this and don't need to deal with it anymore Um, it can be used symbolically. I think then it has more value than if you were actually using it to attempt to correct a Unwanted behavior or situation by Negative reinforcement. Yeah, I mean there are definitely people out there who feel like when they did something wrong They must be punished or they will dwell on Whatever they did wrong forever until they receive that punishment in which case, you know, I'm all for the punishments um, but Punishments for the sake of punishments not so much I think in exactly in exactly our many years and same with rules Rules for this a lot of people that are new to DS relationships or authority transfer think We need to have rules, right? That's a part of the structure What rules should I have for my submissive what rules should we have in our relationship? Rules Should give structure to serve the relationship and the people in it and bring some kind of benefit or order or structure Rules for the sake of rules Don't help What does it matter if you Serve my dinner in a very specific way if neither of us care as long as you made a good meal and we can sit down and have dinner You know, uh, do I care which plate it's on and how many times you spin around clockwise before you set it in front of me That may not matter to me. So that rule would be meaning It may matter to other people The rule about opening the car door maybe one way or form of that is meaningful to us and we do that But it's not inherent to the rule itself If it's not meaningful then the the rule isn't going to be enforced either exactly every rule you have is going to take effort to maintain and keep Enforced and make sure it's working and maybe that's effort. I just don't want to do right quite frankly Sometimes I just don't care about that stuff. Why do I need to make a rule about it? It's just gonna take time and mental labor for me uh rules should be Serving the relationship they should be serving the people and what can it do to make things better? Maybe the rule will help get better again Maybe it's we have rules around using your calendar and maintaining a better schedule so that you're more timely and still getting your responsibilities done maybe there's rules about Homework if you're in school or career advancement things like that that will Enhance our lives make something better. There's bad habits you want to break or better healthier habits that you want to develop and foster Rules can be great for that But what good is a bedtime if you didn't have a problem with staying up too late and not getting enough sleep and being out of focus at work tomorrow If you didn't have that problem instituting a hard bedtime Isn't really gonna add any benefit and eventually it's probably just gonna be an annoyance that we're gonna resent Because you were in the middle of doing something and you have to stop or you have to leave your friends to be home by curfew Or it just interrupted and again it's one more thing that we have to focus on Maintaining and enforcing and if it's not giving a measurable benefit to us, why are we bothering Absolutely, I mean and when you have a rule and you're not enforcing it because it doesn't have any meaning Then you're also eroding your own authority Absolutely. Yeah, if I have the rule and I don't care about it. Why is that rule there? But does that mean that I don't care about the other rules too? And does that mean that you can you might think well if he doesn't really care about x or y Then I can probably also get away with z because he's not really enforcing that rule either and that can just Encourage all of us into various bad habits Yeah, I mean Rules need to have meaning they need to have purpose sometimes that purpose is To reinforce the submission or be symbolic of the submission or something like that But it has to have some meaning or some purpose Yes, and if and maybe it did and it no longer does you don't have to stick with it Just because we had that rule before doesn't mean we still need it maybe It doesn't work for us. Maybe we fix for the problem and now you're in that good habit And that's ingrained in you and you don't need external enforcement for it whatever it may be So now maybe it's something that we do or it becomes like one of those weird obscure laws that's technically still on the books But when was the last time anybody was arrested for having an ice cream cone in their back pocket on a Sunday, you know It's still technically there But it doesn't matter and we all know and it's okay So just because a rule is there doesn't mean it has to be enforced if there's no benefit to it I mean, I think in in our many years together I've only implied or Had one punishment with a little bit and it was Very situational and I would be actually be surprised if she remembered it And she stepped away from so she's not gonna chime in right now but Yeah, I mean because most of the time it is as you were saying earlier that You know it has You know, it's not so much you need to follow the letter of the rule But the spirit of it and if it is not working, why isn't it working? Yeah, and and talk about that the What what's the difference in that if we have a rule in place? What's the letter of the rule and what's the spirit of the rule and which one matters maybe specificity matters and Let's say or even in a command or or an instruction given that doesn't have a rule for example Let's say I ask my partner to Get me a shirt while I'm getting dressed right and maybe they just go and grab One of my t-shirts from the drawer and it's fine or I tell them which shirt to get me or or one of the good ones out of the closet And they do that that's exactly what I asked maybe they also Come back not only with that shirt, but they come back with an undershirt and a pair of socks Because maybe it's like well, you're getting ready I thought I'd be helpful. You're gonna need an undershirt. You're gonna need a pair of socks So I went ahead and grabbed them for you So that might be good because the spirit of the of the instruction is help me get ready help me get dressed or maybe It is the letter of the law and I say no go put those back I asked you to get me a shirt. I didn't say anything about getting me socks That's not what I asked for Please don't assume That you know more than what I asked for That is something that can be discussed whether it be ongoing or situational as it comes up But the difference between What's the letter of the law or instruction versus what is the intent and spirit behind it can be a relevant distinction Sure So while you had stepped away a little bit We talked that you know in our many years together I think I've only given you one punishment. Do you even remember what that was? Um You mean besides Mary? Oh well, yeah There's that yeah, there's that too One I Yes, I got to where weighted weighted balls actually The Benoit balls it was for something oh okay, there's been two And we'll see clearly Punishment like that is not something that's important to either of you know Because neither of you Accurately remember when it was applied or what for or what it was meant to correct or enforce and you've been doing fine in your relationship without So punishment isn't a required part of the dynamic for you and something you opt to do without Did I actually make you do that? I think I just threatened to make you know you mean no you had me wear them because like you had me bring them Okay, and I had to insert them in my car At the restaurant that we were meeting at oh yeah Because you stood right there and made sure that I inserted them I was thinking that I made that I made March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in March in Any parade with those okay Um, but You had threatened that one and I was like that's probably not a brilliant idea because I think that parade would have been the um Pride March parade which was like two and a half miles That sounds brilliant to me I mean the threats I've heard you come up with nothing would surprise you No, not at all No, the one I was thinking of when it was when we were at our first event together And I told you to call and make sure we got a late checkup and you waited until it was too late to request a late checkup So your punishment was is you had to pack up the car while I went to the class Yeah, there was that except yeah We figured out afterwards that that wasn't communicated well either On my uh, I like you didn't communicate that well on my end, but Yes, and I took responsibility for it. Yeah, and I did all of the packing of the car and including making sure the car got jumped because The battery had died on the car too, so I got to do all of the things which was extra your car Yes, we took mine because you were like I don't think it's all going to fit in mind with an extra person Just one extra person versus just eating you're going Yeah, I did have that problem for a while It's the problem when you do too many types of play at some point you not only just need a bigger play bag You need a bigger car for all the play bag. Yes We've had to compromise on that because you know the dead body toy box that you have Just is not a good idea to take with us to events anymore Especially if I'm the one that's going to be carrying them all now for different reasons Not a punishment All right, well as we're getting close to the end of our time is there anything else we need to talk about With authority transfer You know, I think it's really just Kind of driving back that main point of it can be whatever the people involved want it to be what They want to build together its relationships should be a collaborative process And these should be ongoing discussions These should be things that are regularly talked about and considered And modified as necessary because ultimately it's What can we build together that will be the best for us uh and In that Another quote I have here or rather this is actually paraphrase this is an adapted quote But from John Warren who is the author of the loving dominant And that's if you say I want to be a slave I'll say good for you But if you say you want to be my slave I'll say sit down because we have a lot to talk about Mm-hmm That makes sense Okay, so doing this inside the actor studio style He loved me for this as you roll your eyes All right, what's your favorite toy in your toy bag? Oh god, I mean[laughs] Is it a cop-out to say my sense of creativity? Yeah, it is Yeah, yep, uh-huh I mean, you know, the things I can do just with my hands without even needing a separate object Well, you can't keep your hands in your toy bag, so The item that you can keep in your toy bag Uh probably Probably my my rope It is Incredibly versatile With a little bit of creativity. There's almost nothing I couldn't do Including Things you wouldn't think of with rope we tend to think of rope for bondage and tying and restraint, but I can use it as an impact toy if I want and I can get a lot of different sensations depending on whether it's Out in a strand or bundled tightly into a tight pack The kinds of bondage I can do the types of restraint I can create so many different kinds of sensations and Feelings both physical and emotional and use it to Connect in any number of different ways. It is remarkably versatile So I think my favorite I will go ahead and say my if I can say count my rope kit as one That's fine Yeah, I'll allow it So my favorite question to ask people is if you had to Which mup it would you have sex with and why? Oh That is you know there's there's there's important things to consider here Probably Janice from the electric mayhem she seems like she might be up for some interesting stuff for sure really For sure maybe really big teeth. I don't know but I don't know if it's if it's for sex and pretty typical See if you were like to play with like who would I want to do a scene in a dungeon with probably Gonzo Because he he would just be game for some some weird and goofy stuff And I know the kind of stuff you like to do rabbi and I've seen your scenes and the stuff you come up with in the dungeon And that's exactly the kind of vibe that I think Gonzo and I could run with See now I know a real life in person person named Gonzo and I'm pretty sure that they would be all down to fit that description for their name too I mean Gonzo is my favorite type of porn so My gosh All right three words that describe your play three words that describe my play Mm-hmm Creative surprising That's one I get a lot um and Still fun I think even if it's not a quote-unquote fun type of scene it's still Some kind of fun for us and we enjoy what we did we enjoyed the time together And it's it's under that kind of fun Nice so I think yeah, I will say Uh, I don't even remember what my first one was before creative and fun surprising rising, yeah, that's it um Yeah, I've had a lot of people over the years say things like oh, I thought Dave was such a nice sweet guy And then I saw him play They're mean, you know when I when I know other sadists that tell me they're afraid of some of the shit that I've done I guess that's a lot of honor I would say them that fits the your biggest compliment and kink So what is your secret origin story into kink? I think mine's pretty typical not super secret of a long time had kind of been comfortable with with stuff off the beaten path and uh Maybe that that probably dovetails pretty well with why I've been you know into things like the rocky horror picture show for so many years as well they are kind of related close by sub sets sub communities um but that have or can have a fair amount of overlap between them um But I was I don't know it's just always kind of comfortable with that so when I found other people and friends in college that were also those kind of people and we enjoyed that kind of stuff and then uh one of those kind of friends introduced me to fet life after it had been around for a couple of months and and I found the greater kink community here in st. Louis and what had has become online uh and became active and have made some lifelong relationships and friends and become very active and involved and engaged in it but I don't think there is any secret origin or one specific inciting event or point of genesis for me it just sort of happened because I guess I was just kind of that kind of person who found himself going that way nice not the not that I recall I might have done that to a few people but I'm just not that into being bitten myself so fair all right ask your favorite question and that'll be our last one okay what's your favorite curse word? Fuck is just so wonderful there's so many ways to use it and and so many ways to create new ways to use it it's just too versatile vocally just like the sound and the mouth feel or something about is really satisfying just ending on that hard consonant that hard k is just it's satisfying to say it's satisfying to hear and it's just so versatile there is no replacement for the proper good use of the word fuck nice yes it definitely terrible fun fact about the word fuck growing up my childhood phone number spelled out fuck so that was probably the first curse word I was aware of because people were always calling and telling me about it right right you know that number six three four fuck that's got to be great on your form that that really explains a lot about you know that I think about you that probably explains a few things well but yeah between that and my birthday being six nine yeah nice I'm surprised it took me as long to find the king community as it did all right well thank you Dave for being on the show and talking to us about authority transfer thank you for having me it was great here I was thrilled when you asked me to do so I was happy to do it and it's been a ton of fun hey for our listeners upcoming synagogue in person in virtual classes we have classes on electro play both with and without the violet wand reading body language dollar store domination knife play quills chain fisting body drumming and a whole bunch of other stuff check out our website for dates locations and where to take them online but that is it that's our show say good night a little bit good night little bit good night little bit[laughter]