Ep6 - "BDSM and the Law" with Lady Steele

Ep6 - "BDSM and the Law" with Lady Steele

People participate in BDSM all the time not knowing the potential legal pitfalls. It is time to get down to brass tacks. What legal dangers are inherent to what it is we do? The simple truth is, that legal issues abound when it comes to participating in BDSM and always have. It can affect several areas in our lives, including family, criminal, civil, estate planning, healthcare, and even business law. How can you prepare yourself for the worst-case scenario? 

Lady Steele is a femme lesbian Alpha leather slave with multiple neurodiversities. She is an international presenter residing in ATL, where she is the only open, out, and practicing attorney in the US who specializes in issues in the BDSM and ethical non-monogamy communities. Education is her passion, and she has taught 100's of classes over 15 years. She is the founder of the Center of Learning and School of Success), Worthless Bastards (Cigar) Club, and The Leather Coterie.

• Fetlife.com/AttorneyLadySteele
• X.com/SarahSteeleEsq
• Instagram.com/SarahSteeleEsq
• NCSFreedom.org
• KAPprofessionals.org

---
SINagogue hosts and guests are subject matter experts but not *the* expert. We believe outside of violating consent, there's no wrong way to kink except to think your way is the only way. The show is presented from a RACK (Risk-Aware Consentual Kink) point of view, not SSC (Safe Sane Consentual) because each person’s definition of safe is different based on their risk profile. Use of the word "safe" on the show fits our definition, and that doesn't have to be your definition. 

Reminder, we try to make our content as inclusive as possible regardless of gender, orientation, role in the lifestyle, etc., but we do inherently speak from our own point of view. We want to learn from our mistakes. If you feel like we said something offensive, let us know. Reach out via our website or call us at 469-269-0403.

Today’s show was brought to you in part by the letters S and M, and the Number 69. 

*San Dimas High School Football Rules*

Chapters

• 1:44 Introduction
• 4:08 Disclaimer
• 17:14 Adoption
• 20:14 Model Penal Code
• 27:49 Story Time
• 37:24 What do you wish you knew when you started?
• 45:54 How Dare You!
• 57:39 Biggest Failure
• 1:06:10 Catch Phrases
• 1:16:44 Inside The Kinksters Studio

Transcript

1:14

Hosting with me today is my partner, my ADHD squirrel wrangler, my submissive, my brat, my little, my pony, or just my little pony. The Julianna to my Evan a little bit. This is episode number six, and with us today is Lady Steel to talk to us about BDSM in the law. Hello! So people participate in bondage discipline and sadism/masochism all the time, not knowing the potential legal pitfall. It is time to get down to brass tax. What legal dangers are inherent to what it is we do. The simple truth is legal issues abound when it comes to participating in BDSM and always have. It can affect several areas in our lives, including family, criminal, civil, estate planning, health care, and even business law. How can you prepare yourself for the worst case scenario? Find out as Lady Steel tells us about BDSM in the law, which will also include the newest updates from the National Coalition of Sexual Freedom. But first, a word from our sponsor. Lady Steel is a famed lesbian alpha leather slave with multiple neurodiversities. She is an international presenter and resides in Atlanta where she is the only open out and practicing attorney in the United States who specializes in the issues that arise in the BDSM and ethical non-monogamy community. Education is her passion and she is taught hundreds of classes over 15 years both in person and virtually. She is the founder of the Center of Learning and School of Success class, the worthless bastard cigar club WBC Atlanta, and the leather co-tier TLC. And probably leads all of these groups under the umbrella of West's inclusive Georgia Socials Wings group. Lady Steel has held various positions in both the former chapter of NLA Atlanta and the leather leadership conference. Lady Steel is also a proud associate member of the Southern leather chapter of the Onyx Pearls. Thank you for being here in the synagogue, Lady Steel. How are you doing today? Hey! I'm so glad to be here. I'm doing fantastic. I had a very busy day at work and then had a very busy day at home. And now I'm glad to be here relaxing with a two of you. So tell us a little about BDSM in the law. Tell me about the last 12 years of your career. Okay. I'm going to assume we have to start with some sort of disclaimer that you are a lawyer but not listeners lawyers. I do. I really should do that. I shouldn't. Hello everybody. My name is Lady Steel, a attorney, Lady Steel on Fet Life. I am an attorney licensed to practice in the state of Georgia. I have practiced in other states on a case by case basis but I have to be led in by the highest level courts in those jurisdictions in order to do that. So I can't say that I can't but it takes a little more effort. So everything that I will talk about tonight will be coming from a Georgia law perspective. Also this is not any sort of discussion that is to constitute an attorney client relationship. There's no expectation of confidentiality. So if you live in another state this is Georgia law not where you are law. No assembly required, battery is not included. So yeah, yeah I think we're good. So in other words this isn't if you're in Georgia or whether you're not this does not constitute legal advice. I'm just a highly educated lay person with a particular certification talking to y'all about what I've been doing for the last 12 years. Nice. Contents may have settled during shipping. Correct. So where do you start to tackle this topic? You know it's funny I was in law school. Oh goodness gracious six 11 Moses 2006 is when I started and I went originally and a lot of people don't know this you're getting this cube. I originally went to law school because my best friend and soulmate that I had known since middle school or junior high died from taking a fedra whenever it was out in you know convenience stores everywhere and she was trying to lose weight for her wedding and it gave her a hard attack at the ripe young age of 27 and she passed away and so I was determined I was going to be a product's liability attorney true story and then in my first semester of law school I took torts and I was like yep nope we're not doing that so I just kind of continued ambling my way through law school and I got to know folks in the BDS and M community here in Atlanta and I am based out of Atlanta. And I'm still based out of Atlanta even then and I met up with a gentleman by that goes by Lord cup on FetLife the original LC and he has been practicing law almost as long as I've been in the world and that is not a short period of time and he said you know look he was kind of like Willie Wonka which is of course like my favorite movie for my childhood right. He was like I you know I don't want to keep doing this forever you know so you know this is something that you're interested in in practicing and I had thought about different marginalized communities and the legal resources that they had available to them and I'm like well you know because I'm a member of the LGBT community and I'm like yeah they have land illegal and I looked around and I was like you know what yeah because I mean you don't hear about at least not back then about a lot of people specializing and this special issues that come up with people in the BDSNM world or in the Ethical Nominatomy world and so I went to a couple of his BDSNM Law classes which is why I still called him that and I was hooked and so he started teaching me about the things you know all that he had practiced I mean he's been in front of the United States I believe the United States Supreme Court definitely the Georgia Supreme Court and he mentored me and he came to my first time presenting that was before I had a bar of card I was in law school and of course I gave all those disclaimers right and so I've taught that class this class oh goodness gracious if I had to guess probably at least 50 times since then at least I would have to sit and actually count it up but that's sort of how I got my start I worked for a family law attorney and then a criminal attorney because there's the two major areas and I got two really big clients at once I also was diagnosed with cancer and I was undergoing treatment at the same time and I was like you know what I can't do full-time work anymore and so while I was still undergoing chemo I started my law firm as the the kinky attorney and that's what I've been doing well I've been to last September I'm still doing this just on a part-time basis now well thank you so not something you set out to do from the start just a fun detour yeah I wanted to represent people who were marginalized or did not have great big huge organizations backing them you know and thank god for lambdelegal don't get me wrong but they they existed already you know and so whenever I thought about it and I listened to Lord Cuffs you know pitch about it basically I was like yeah this is what I was destined to do and here I am very cool so I know something I heard at my very first play party at the newbie's orientation was assume everything we do is illegal how good of advice is that I usually open up my class with that everybody you know sits and and I tend to be I tend to use humor as a way to kind of break the ice you know we'll sit around and we'll change that and I'll get up there get the real super serious face on and I'll say all right this is the first thing you'll need to know everything we do is illegal everything unless you're in Florida and it is a simple battery or a simple assault to which you can consent everything we do is illegal because consent is not a defense yet whenever I started this it wasn't even on the horizon but thank goodness for the national coalition of sexual freedom which has made it a possibility they do good work in the mental health field as well oh absolutely they're they're amazing absolutely amazing so what are some of the big issues that people run into that they come to you for help with if I had to not that I'm going to sit here and do math because I'm a lawyer not in accountant but maybe get ahead no no I don't know I'm not I sign it up she's like no but I'm not here she's there I wish Metta was here because he definitely mad but anyway but yeah if I had to I would say the largest chunk of the pie like the Thanksgiving piece of pie share is has to do with family long and it's either people getting together wanting to make sure that they don't screw anything up in the end or they're ending everything and one person is trying to accuse the other of cheating or you know domestic violence or something to that effect in order to either get the children keep the children or get the assets and keep the assets and then you know of course it doesn't necessarily have to be a divorce you could also be you know legitimation and or custody visitation or even child support arguments I mean I've seen it all and a vast majority of the time I have people that come to me who two big categories either they're X's whether Spell's partners whatever he's trying to use the life against them I call it life not lifestyle because the style you can change a life you can't so they are using the life against them or and I was shocked y'all shocked at the number of times this has happened over the last 12 years where they had my client had an attorney who would not zealously represent them which is a Kins-Bar rules by the way because they thought they were dirty or immoral or unethical or something to that effect and they came to me because I mean they acted all ashamed and everything else I'm like oh no you've come to the right place you're you're fine I promise and so I had more than a few clients from you know those places and then the other smaller numbers I've had other attorneys call me and say hey I understand you're the one that can translate these terms for me I said I will do it as long as you promise not to judge and they're like okay and you know because I don't care what they think of me because I am completely opening out and everything that I do even now since taking the second job that I've got but yeah it's um it was amazing and shocking to me at how many attorneys professional people judge the clients and and dump them as clients because they just they just weren't having it um after that I would say criminal law so if people prosecute um you know their former partner spouses play partners whatever usually for sexual assault or assault and battery um or unfortunately you know somebody gets egregiously hurt or experience a serious bottling harm and they end up going to a mandated reporter like a doctor um a therapist something like that and they don't understand what's going on and how consent plays into everything that it is that we do have done properly then yeah then then they ended up reporting and then it becomes a domestic if I say DV I mean domestic violence a domestic violence um you know investigation and I was just in the state two weekends ago teaching I was an organ and an organ if a DV call is made every and arrest has to be made before the police leaves there is no you know let me talk to the everybody involved and see if we can get you know the the straight story and that's surprising because here in Georgia they like to arrest somebody but if if all the stories aren't driving exactly the way they should they'll arrest both people and say we'll figure it out in the end um not that I think that's necessarily a better method but it just surprises me you know how different states handle this across the country um after that that's whenever it kind of gets into kinky folks who happen to be you know ethically nomenogamous and a state planning is was a sizable chunk of what it is that I do you know because uh poly marriage and I hate using the term poly because of the Polynesian cultures you want to take it back but the ethical nomenogamy communities um we don't have anywhere to go to get married except for like two little places in Massachusetts right now I mean and that's okay because that's how it gets started right you know we had vermont and hawaii in other places allow people of the same gender to get married and eventually you know it became legal but as of right now um ethical nomenogamy and folks who practice that the marriages in other words more than two you know it's it's not allowed and so that was a big part of it then there was um you know pieces of work here and there of starting businesses or dissolving businesses like you know dungeons um going over uh non-disclosure agreements and oh goodness pro uh premises liability agreements you know the waivers that you send when you go to events um i've done a lot a lot of different things and it's it always surprises me how you know the next thing that I hadn't even thought about about how what it is that we do can affect it absolutely that's a lot yeah it's it's a it's a lot of I've been a busy woman for 12 years I mean I would have to imagine since as your bios as you're the only open and out kinky lawyer you get all of it rather than specialization in a particular field uh over the last few years I started feeling like willy wanka and as I was prolifically traveling because I mean you know you have to travel to teach and I love teaching but it's also good marketing of course you know let's be real and as I was doing that I mean sort of I'm at y'all um as I was doing that you know it's it got to the point to where I'm like really guys yes this is my claim to fame but eventually my son is going to be grown and I'm going to want to travel the world and not deal with this anymore where are you and the more I put out there that I wanted to meet more folks like me the more I realize that there's a lot of people like who are on the the kinkler professional list that the ncsf puts together but the problem is they can't be open and out about it because of their families or their you know situation with an ex-spouse in their children or situation with their current spouse you know and maybe their family you know and so I guess it's fortunate that I don't know at whenever I graduated law school I was just like I'm never going to hide who I am because I never wanted anyone to be able to hold that against me and especially not my client and so I have stood in circles of very high level people in the government and I will never forget this conversation was at the state bar and I was taking a continuing education course right and all of these adoption attorneys were standing around like oh adoption let me check this out and I walked over and this is before we had laws here in Georgia to help protect same gendered people who were married if they got artificial insemination or had a surrogate you know protecting the non biological partner and matter of fact I was just talking about this on somebody's Facebook today anyway and so I said so when do you expect polyamory you know because that's the term we use then polyamory being allowed in adoptions you know having more than two parents you could have heard a record scratch and this was not that long ago I mean it's been at least probably sure since my son's been in the world so at least in the last nine years and so like they were just so shocked and I'm like wait y'all live in the big city right it's not like where I am now because I'm in far west Georgia now and like I expected them to be way more I guess cool about it or at least knowledgeable about it and they stood there and picked my brain for a good 20 minutes but they still walked away looking like you know something smelled I'm like well this is me you know as we were talking before the the podcast where I'm here I'm queer and get over it you know and so yeah it's been an interesting adventure watching everything change in the last couple of decades I've been a part of this life and I'm so happy to have been you know at least a small part of that yeah I had a client I think it was a year or two ago who was in a polycule and they were looking to adopt and I was shocked to hear that their social worker was so enthusiastic about it thought it was a great bonus that this child was basically going to get four parents instead of two the misspelling I mean this is the synagogue intro I mean like I was expecting to hear the worst from this client and I heard that was like oh yeah awesome wow see and you know that kind of reminds me you know and I don't know when you're ready to segue into the NCSF stuff but the day after what I'm going to talk about here in just a few minutes went into effect with a model penal code a friend of mine who is a investigator for public defense attorneys there's he was working for a particular county at that time and it wasn't like one of the major Atlantic counties it was like one of the outlying ones but still part of the metro area and so he gets on the elevators five o'clock everybody's going home and he's you know of course defense attorneys no prosecutors right and two prosecutors got on the elevator and my friend was playing with his phone mine in his own business any overheard them talking I mean it's an elevator where you're going to go you know and one person said to the other hey did you hear what just happened in regards to the model penal code in consent and the other person said yeah I remember reading about that and they said thank God we can now prosecute the cases that matter so people are out there getting to know us whether it be through cheesy horrible movies like 50 Shades or whatever and the books that are written about it that's fiction and not and all of this and they're starting to realize there really is nothing to see here move along in most cases and you know it's a bell curve like anything else but yeah people at least in my profession and in my circles legal circles meaning they don't want to get people hung up on stuff that they don't need to get hung up on they there's so many more important things to prosecute and they're saying that this ain't it good yeah very good right right yeah this is one of those things where it's like all right well you know people can start to breathe a little bit maybe not a whole lot but just a little bit especially if you know different entities are trying to make our appropriate changes um sure see I don't really call it if I'm an absolutely no no your ADHD it's okay I'm really bad about that um you know I don't tell people it's time to breathe I tell people it's time to wait and act because with everything that happened with the NCSF it was not put into law the codification of consent um before and during your scene and how to rescind it it was actually just it was it was codified but it was not put into law and so now it's up to either the courts or the legislators to make that happen and that's the weight part well what can you do to help get out there and support organizations like the NCSF you know knock on doors and if you're able to if you need to be anonymous you know make phone calls from phone banks they still exist I had a friend that was just elected commissioner in the county where I worked my day job now um just yesterday and you know she's she had phone banks good old fashioned people knocking on doors and handing out flyers I mean that's still a thing and a lot of people think you know in the age of electronics oh well they can just send everything out in an email list you might be surprised how many of our lawmakers still to this day either don't have email and I'm not kidding or don't read email and that's you know to be expected you know that's what their assistance are for right and so sometimes you just have to get in people's faces not like in a mean way but in a hey take a look at this would you like to talk to me about it way and that's why I say wait and act you know be be an activist um if you want to breathe a little bit just tiny bit like that first little lace from the courts maybe just a little bit but yeah it's now more than ever it's the time to be active and if all it feels and you cannot do any of those things always give a contribution to the NCSF because they are volunteer run all the way up to the founder Susan Wright doesn't get a paycheck I don't get a paycheck nobody gets a paycheck for doing what we do for them and so it is run by contributions and fundraising can you explain for the lay people listening what codify means oh codify yes I'm so sorry um so whenever lawmakers and judges for that matter um are wanting to make something part of the law believe it or not they really do take that seriously like very seriously especially judges especially elected judges um and so what they do is that they look at different codes like it's called the official court oh my goodness gracious official code of Georgia or OCGA and so to codify something is to get it into the code now I said it was not put into law which it has not been it was put into the model penal code and that's P-E-N-A Elgitramine's out of the gathers um but the model penal I would love for there to be another kind of model penal code that'd be amazing um but yeah model penal code uh which is what lawmakers and judges look at it's called uh a legal treatise and so they're able to look at it as an influential resource possibly for a lot not uh one that is expressed or that is a required one you know a mandatory one and so to codify something is to put it into a code somewhere and depending on what code you put it in depends on what kind of teeth it has basically so it is a sample law that is no law in simplest terms the model penal code is this it it okay so think about this I mean y'all've been parts of elections you know and everybody listening to this likely has as well and you know you I'll use Georgia for example you know we had a peanut farmer come up from America America is that where president Carter was from anyway who came up and you know I believe he was now going back into my history books I'm in who you know ran stuff in Georgia I'm not gonna say what because I don't remember at the moment but eventually became president but he was a peanut farmer he was you know he didn't take a great deal of polypsych classes you know he didn't take a great deal you know he wasn't born into a family where they'd been doing this for generations and where he was raised around it and so people like that and even the people that were need guidance from heads higher than them and that's what I love about the monopinal code because of course penal meaning criminal law right so the model penal code is an example of what criminal laws criminal code in each of the states in the districts could possibly be which is why I tell people when I teach the subject you know about what we did with the NCSF and what they did was to look at it as and remember as much as all of us in our community wants to see it passed 100% always keep in mind that they can pass it in whole in part or not at all and so they may look at this and say oh this is crap you know just throw it in the garbage or they might go we like this this and this but we're not going to do the rest of this or other states may look at it or the judges in the states may look at it and go no I like all of this and as soon as either the legislature makes it part of the penal code in their particular state or the judges make it part of a case then it becomes you know case made law or legislator legislature excuse me made law and that's how it goes from being in the model penal code to that actual penal code or at least the case is backing up the penal code in certain you know in the states that adopt that and then say let's say Georgia's the first one to do that maybe it Georgia's the first one to do that then Ohio you know could look at Georgia and go hey man look at what they did in the courts you know if I was an attorney in Ohio I could go hey attorney steal and you know down there in Atlanta argued this argument the facts are very similar what do you think judge again an influential source of law not a mandatory one right and so but if that judge agrees then it becomes mandatory law in that state at whatever level the judge is and so it's a painfully slow process but it can't happen so as a therapist I like my analogies the model penal code is the homework that you're copying into your own words that is absolutely correct I tell people all the time the practice of law is nothing but plagiarism people who wrote it way better than we did before us so before we transition into the NCSF stuff I have a story I want to tell you because I love story time um so the first time I was introduced to you let's put it that way many years ago it was a Sunday morning in St. Louis you're teaching a class this class at VACT is a matter of it it was packed full I wound up sitting on the floor oh goodness a little bit was late because she was packing up the car as a tradition um but I was very early in my journey both as an educator and as a therapist and I knew what I wanted to do I didn't know how I wanted to do it and I took your class I said that's it that's what I want to be I want to be open and out like that I want to have a classroom full of people where it's standing where only you know as you said you didn't know anybody who was opening out as a professional and I didn't know anybody in my field but you were the first person I came across who was like that even though completely different fields so I you know I wanted to one share that with you and thank you for being that type of inspiration to me how long have we known each other and you've never told me that I'm just like oh my god my eyes are like it just like oh well it's it's my pleasure to serve always and I'm so glad that anything any word any gesture anything that I do is an inspiration to anybody to get on their right path and I know I'm definitely proud of the work that you do because it's needed it's needed it's definitely needed I mean I've met people out in my field now who are there but at that time it was zero I didn't know it existed um so it's been a little easier for people in the mental health field I don't know maybe not I guess it depends on where you live I would suppose yeah where we live there is not even another sex therapist for 50 miles whoa um so that was having the exclusive market yeah yeah I'm not gonna deny that I mean that's how I was able to you know no you're the jack of all trades because I get all of that too yeah for the 50 miles around me everybody always asks me what do you specialize in because most attorney specialize especially in big cities and I'm like the vds and m and enm communities and they're like well what does that mean come to my class or listen to the rabbis podcast so transitioning NCSF they do a lot of great work they helped get bdsm as a diagnosis and now I'm forgetting the fancy word that was in the dsm do I need to go by a point it had some big fancy word used to be if you practice bdsm at all you could be diagnosed as mentally ill now it is for sure if you do it and and it causes a problem then it is a diagnosis and that was a big change uh I want to say 2016 but it's been relatively recently yeah yeah very recently um so they do great work in my field tell me what they do in yours they who I'm sorry NCSF oh goodness gracious oh lordy they write um friends of the court briefs or amicus briefs and mechis briefs um they are the ones I mean they have the kink of wear professionals list where people can look up people like me you know people in need and go hey you know my lawyer is not understanding the words that are coming out of my mouth can you help explain you know because I can not only talk to you know other attorneys on a a life level or this this lifestyle level but also on a legal level and what that means you know because it's not just oh well I think it's cool that people do that well I can think it's cool all day long it's still illegal is all get out so yeah no uh so uh oh gosh what did they not do they go they go and they you know they have people like me educating people across the country how to um you know try to get this explicit prior permission um parts of the model penal code you know put into the codes of their states I mean they give us all sorts of support I think one of the biggest things they do to support us though is because they are such a well-known and well respected organization um you know they're the second second biggest loviest group in the United States next to the NRA proving that Americans like their sex and they like their guns so they go um which comes as a surprise to no one in this conversation or who is listening no sure yeah it's always the joke that I tell you know and and depending on where you are depends on how it lands and I'm like oh I'm not in south anymore there we go uh but yeah I think one of the biggest hopes that they do is as an organization because they are respected and they do good work and they've been around so long that if I need a friend of the court brief written then I can come to them and go hey guys you know this is what's going on um this is the kind of case I have you know here are the basic facts you know not violating confidentiality of course can you write a brief you know and of course other lawyers right who volunteered for the NCSF can you write a brief to you know add to um my case to kind of help me out here because I think um you know I might be stumbling here and and to me as an attorney that's one of the biggest things that they do that's valuable directly to my profession the word I was looking for before parafilio is what was in the DSM oh parafilio this right and I remember that in a minute yeah for our listeners the NCSF website ncsfreedom.org and the uh professionals directory is k a p professionals dot org all sorts of professionals there from therapists to lawyers, photographers anything you might need where it is relevant there are professionals on there are they in your area maybe maybe not but it's always worth a check and if not then you know they might be able to do work I mean a lot of things happened over COVID where we can do business I mean I do divorces all the time uh that are uncontested I never even meet the client because everything's virtual now aren't not virtual but like online you know we do e filing and all that so don't uh don't necessarily disqualify somebody just because they don't live close to you you might be surprised I mean if you need like a medical doctor or something like that yeah maybe but like a therapist hey what about zoom you know as long as that's allowed in your state with your licensure so absolutely um yeah therapy yeah crossing state lines varies from state to state but there is a legal thing going on right now to erase those borders and you know make it so we can all that's fantastic anywhere I think okay 35 states have signed on so far if nice but even if the person you reach out to can't help you may they might know somebody who can help you who is closer that may not be out and may not be on the list so and I'm gonna go ahead and tell us my head into the ring because and I teach this in a lot of my classes whenever I talk about DV domestic violence that if you're in a situation it doesn't have to involve domestic violence it could be anything um and you need an attorney's help and you can't find somebody on the you know kinkware professionals list or anything like that write me on the fet life again attorney lady steal all one word three ease not all in a row because I know a lot of people after doing this and I can always go and go out on you know I in Georgia alone I have I run a Facebook group with over a thousand licensed attorneys licensed to practice in Georgia and if I go out there and put the weirdest back pattern and the weirdest circumstances and I'm talking about you know I'm saying weird right you know and go hey is there anybody who can help I promise you there's gonna be somebody going hey I know a person or hey I am that person and so you know the answer to all unanswered questions unasked questions is no and so don't do that to yourself don't you know fail before you even started because you're afraid to ask definitely ask because in situations like this there are no dumb questions so we're trying to make sure that you know you're following what you need to follow or doing what you need to do and that's right also finding the hope that you need to help and getting connected to the resources that could help you do lots and lots of better things good things all of that good that's right you know it's help people all the time don't come into my life and in my BDS in the world and expecting us to be your therapist be working on your your shiz before you come in here because can it be therapeutic absolutely should it be your exclusive therapy oh no I even think the rabbi would agree with me in regards to that definitely now now you have to work it if you're actually going to make strides on things you are your own most possible every day every day ooh preach so what's one thing that you know now that you wish you knew at the beginning of your journey with all this that it was possible to piece me all together a network even then even if it was like a little tiny baby network and then I could have grown it more like I didn't look to network with other kinky attorneys that could possibly be opening out and practicing until again I hit the woolly wonka stage and I was like you know what I'm going to be backpacking across Europe here in just a few years so you know so because I see I hear when I go to places they're like oh yeah you know we've got this attorney that does that and this attorney that does that and not everybody's going to have my qualifications in vice versa you know and so I wish I would have found the NCSF earlier too I mean honestly I found them at some convention I mean you know how that goes at some convention that you went to some number of you know decades ago or whatever and became more involved with them quicker because as a solo practicing attorney it's scary enough not having you know any sort of mentors or like you know I work for a government entity now and so I have everything at my disposal right I didn't have that for 12 years now did I build a network yes did I build a network of kinky attorneys absolutely did the NCSF help with that absolutely because I could go you know on the kinkware professional site and call somebody I've been going hey Chicago how is this different than Atlanta you know or hey you know Savannah Georgia how are you similar how are what's the temperature down there versus up here in Atlanta you know type thing and so I was saying that it's like having that comforting authority figure behind you all the time I might not ever use them in my practice you know until I retire you know for an amicus brief or something like that but at least they're there and there is a network vast network of people that I can talk to if I have any questions or something comes up I need to bounce someone off of there and I'm everybody's like what you know you should you should get paid for marketing for them well no I just speak the truth because they're really are that awesome very cool so I'm sure somewhere along the line you have received pushback from professionals in your legal field tell me a little bit about that are we talking kinky people in my profession or just anybody in general how about both let's make it fun and festive let's let's let's let's build the team well if you go on my pet life and it doesn't go that far back there is an individual and I'm not going to name names because this is not that forum who misunderstood what Susan Wright and I put out about the the things that were put in the model penal code codifying consent and what that looked like and I mean you know there was fall to them both sides reading could have been better on their side and writing could have been better on you know on our side and so they and they're based here in Atlanta and they're an attorney corporate attorney has never done anything like anything I've done and just kind of ran with it like you know ladies still saying this is law and I'm like ladies ceiling said that and I'm trying not to press on your show because you didn't tell me I could but I'm like no no siri bob lady seal did not say that because that's lady seal was barcars she says that and I protect that only second to my kid because yeah you were hard enough to get something I'm sure you understand why she's right so yeah you protect that like for real and so there's a contingent out there on this human now teaches a kink in the law class and I've had people contact me saying we showed up for that class and that wasn't you I'm like no because of my classes what lord cuff called it bd sm and the wall and so that was a very interesting little irritation for a minute um we're not a long minute you know about a half a minute um but I I was surprised by that because I feel and oh my get all sorts of mail or whatever it is that you get on by cast saying oh my gosh it's not true but I feel I've always tried to cultivate a an an an air of inclusivity never it came to my fellow attorneys because that's again like I said about the ncssf you know if I'm known as the authority then I'm going to sit there and help everybody I possibly can because you know the real winners of the clients it's not us it's not our bank account it's not our egos um if so that happened in the kinky world and oh my goodness gracious say goodbye remember I told you there was some lawyers that judged their clients and that's how I ended up getting them well I was at this oh gosh this has been long long time ago I was at this uh kinky camping type event and my um master and husband's father of my child actually and I were presenting a class to had nothing to do with the law was some over here right and afterwards they were having a party and there was a woman that was strapped to across and lady orfus or I'm sorry to um assign female at birth orfus and um put port of beer in it and said who wants to drink now I am the kind of person that sees opportunity see luck is nothing but the willingness to recognize opportunity I'm sorry the the ability to recognize opportunity in the willingness to seize it so I'm like this is never going to happen again this is never going to happen again and so I went to cip you know and it was all I'm in fact I think I was the own person that did um I mean I've had cancer four times I lived dangerously you know and uh you're familiar with that concept and uh so yeah um after it was all done she was like I really want to talk to you I'm like well hey baby you too yeah like you type thing and she was like no no in a professional level and I'm like turn the car around like sure what's going on well long story short she had hired she's actually out here in a town very close to where I'm sitting right now out in West Georgia her mom had been a paralegal for this law firm her entire life and whenever it came time for her to get a divorce from her husband she went to this firm to get a divorce now when they married they were sudden baptists and all of this along the road they discovered ethical nominogamy and bds and m and they both explored it separately but with consent from everybody involved so it really was supposed to just be a draw up the paperwork we have a couple of kids and assets and let's be done with this sort of thing um they really it really was an amicable split but the attorney that the husband hired and the wife hired my future client was just so acrimonious towards their own clients saying they were sinners and they should be ashamed of themselves and bloody bloody blood and all this and this poor woman had filed for divorce and it had been two and a half years after the settlement agreement was signed now I have been in divorces yeah I mean in Georgia you can get divorced part about 45 days if everybody's in agreement but it had been two and a half years and she was ready to move on and he was ready to move on but he had heard so much crap you know from his attorney he thought she was the bad guy she's sitting here with her hands in the air going what is going on and so I said I got angry I mean this is early in my career I got angry and I'm too old to get angry these days I just win cases so I got angry and I I could have told them to mail me her documents you know her file but instead I decided to go and pick it up in person and I asked to speak to the attorney because of course the person that picks up the files they expected to be a career you know a legal assistant someone I know no the I remember the secretary or the legal assistant knows who's part of secretary receptionist calling back to the old cis-head male white attorney and saying you know here's an attorney here to see you on the bloody block case you know and yes the actual attorney so he took me back into his office and I read in the riot act how dare you well you can't expect me to practice outside of my religious belief I said yes that's exactly what we're supposed to do I just tell you've never done criminal defense so yeah and I mean I read him the riot act and I grabbed that file and I got it there really quickly but yeah that was you know I said I told the story about the adoption attorneys to it the CLE and it's fascinating to me how that is changing and like you said you know the the molecule that was adopting the child you know and that's fantastic but I'm always shocked because I've been around for so long I might have a few gray hairs somewhere I don't know I die it so it doesn't matter you know I am shocked when people are amicable not acrimonious and that's still kind of sad but it's also the state in condition we live in and the state I live in so yeah I've gotten it from both sides and I've always stood my ground and I've always gone you know hey what's you know what's up I went and interviewed for the the job with the government that I work for now and this woman wanted me so bad and I said sit down I said there's something you need to know because this office answers to commissioners you know bublin all this and I told her every y'all everything you hear me and she said oh I'm reading a book on that and it was like one of the fiction smugglers you know I'm like oh and I'm like I mean like I confessed everything about myself and master meta and like like ever y'all everything and she said your experience and alternative communities will come in handy in this office because like it's a small county and everybody knows each other and I'm the outlying piece of data and it really has come in handy and and they everybody everybody it worked absolutely knows you know who it is and I've given a couple of my fat life profile like hey you want to check out what I do go I went to Portland I told them I was going to Portland to teach I think my legal assistant asked if it was it can't you know where it was and I said can't fast you know and she might have looked it up she might not I don't know but I am more surprised that people are open and unfortunately I'm still not surprised if they're not very fair I mean I'm not quite as open and out as you are but that's more of you know the nature of my work versus yours I do have to keep those professional boundaries and my personal life away from my clients you know what's fine yeah and you know what's funny is that I find the opposite to be true in the practice of law the more human you make yourself to your clients the more apt they are to tell you everything I mean I can't tell you the number of clients especially criminal clients you know they you know being prosecuted for assault and battery and rape and drug dealing and all this other stuff you know and they're afraid to tell little me a story I'm like honey I've heard it all I promise I promise you when I say this and so I you know share a few stories from my own life you know of course hiding the names of the guilty and the innocent and you know letting them know that I'm not this person on a pedestal that a lot of people think a therapist or a doctor or an attorney is and I think that is you know if there's any young aspiring or currently aspiring attorneys to do what I do or or something like it just know the more human you make yourself and of course keeping confidences and secrets and all of that I mean I keep secrets for a living this is what I do I mean like you have no idea what that's like right and so you know as long as you keep yourself humble and humane then you know people will flock to you build it and they will come literally yeah I'm open with clients you know that I'm kinky that I live the lifestyle blah blah blah but I don't tell them yo we taught a class on chain festing last week right right and I'd get to catch that class too we're gonna do that but you know I have the wall that I installed last week of NCSF flyers and pamphlets and as was actually surprised that some of my non-sex therapy clients would pick one up on their way out so I'm hoping that opens up some dialogue with them um excellent in the future because that's absolutely awesome yeah with my line of work it's a lot of permission giving not allowing these people to talk about sex uh for some the first time in their life yeah and for my my profession it's an impetus put upon them to tell me as much as they can as succinctly as they can in a shorter period of time as they can because time is money and I need to get down to brass tax and I can't do that unless I know what's actually going on and so yeah oh gosh have you had a client that was hesitant to tell you everything that did just didn't want to yeah yeah all the time well in private practice all the time because the unfortunate um phenomenon that we like to call the internet um has made and and I don't know if you have this similar experience again as a licensed professional um where they go to you know legal zoom or whatever and they think all of a sudden they're you know uh Johnny Cochran and they know the law and they know everything about the law and all of this and and they're paying me 300 or more dollars per hour for the privilege of me sitting there looking at them like they're crazy you know pardon me I shouldn't use that term in front of a uh of therapists but like they they're off the rocker about that and like and and I just I have I cannot tell you the number of times I've held up my hand and I said okay I need you to stop talking and they'll look at me like what what's wrong um aren't I smart you know and and I've gone okay this can go one of two ways you can either continue to pay me for you to talk or you can pay me for me to talk I promise you if you choose the second one you're gonna get a whole lot more for your money and that's whenever they're like you know oh you know poopies um metallos for me to tell this story um we were friends we lost contact then I was a divorce attorney and then yes and appropriate a long amount of time pass before we started dating but when he called me uh he well he Facebook measures me up to be his divorce attorney he actually said to me and this is a quote where he's gonna kill me with this fuck yeah um that he says I hope this divorce is gonna be so simple that you're just a glorified legal assistant that I've paid a lot of money to you y'all when I say my head came unglued from my shoulders I was like I know this mofo didn't just say that to me and what's funny is that as the years of progress we've been in relationship to and a half years now and he has seen the work that I do and he has sat in court and he's seen the hours that I pour over preparation and you know that long hours that I work um you know my my day job now and he has apologized to me over and over again he said I now understand how incredibly offensive that was and I'm like well I told you that at the time you said it just so you'll know I had the Facebook messages if you want to go back and look at it um but yeah you know we you know spend a lot of time and money of our own in order to be able to do this and to have people sit there and try to preach law to you and you know they know better maybe if somebody who's getting a divorce for the second time you know we're a third time or whatever and because they learned everything they needed to know and the prior divorce is then all of a sudden they can tell me what to do and I'm like no we're not gonna do that because I am a slave to master meta um I am no one else a slave and I'm certainly not a slave whenever it comes to my profession and so yeah I mean that happens more often than you might think now tell you this from my vanilla clients that happened more than my kinky clients by the time my kinky clients reached me they were so desperate for help that understood them I mean Dom sub master slip whatever the role was they sat there with their hands folded in their lap very polite saying yes let's talk you know type thing it was always the vanilla clients that thought that they won't not always I mean nothing's absolutely right but the heavily heavily on the bell curve on the side of the vanilla the vanilla clients that I had um because some people were just referred to me and they didn't know what I did you know um I had a couple of clients in over the last 12 years come to me and they didn't realize who I was and then they found out right in the middle of representation and I said the same thing every time you got any questions you let me know and all of them but one were like k and let's alone and then the one client that asked me about it we had a perfectly fine conversation it was great they're like well you know what that's really fascinating miss deal so let's get back to my divorce and it's a by the way I'm not turning you for this part you know that right oh okay you know you talking about breathing right like letting your breath out but yeah I've gotten it from all sides over the years but I'm a tough old broads on the matter but you've never had a client of an elo client say no I can't work with you the only client I ever had and this is an e and m client which I thought it was kind of strange there's a common practice in Georgia that whenever a divorce is completely uncontested everybody signs the forms in advance and then the paperwork comes after that now of course nothing is you know filed with the courts until you know everybody's read everything and everything's cool so say if I got your signature notarized saying that you read you know the petition for divorce or whatever and it has been drafted yet I would follow it up you know a day or two later you know with it and that's very common practice in Georgia and it's like 99% of everybody well all the clients I've ever had but one had absolutely no problem with that practice and man this guy lost his mind about this and I'm like I'm so sorry this is common practice I you know well you're wanting my ex to sign something about a document she hasn't even read I can draft it if you like it'll take me like 45 minutes you know I mean he just like I mean he took his money and left and I was like okay and I'm starting you know and I'm thinking maybe this is a generational thing I'm Gen X they're not you know so from this that point forward I started saying you know I had a client that came in fairly recently that was like you know uncontested divorce and I said you know if you want to sign these papers ahead of time you can knowing that the paperwork is following it but if you're not comfortable with that paperwork can come first signature second it's your choice you know as long as you don't get mad about it right but yeah no I've never had a vanilla client find out that I was kinky and said deuces and I've certainly never had a kinky client you know leave like that um look what they found out I was vanilla which would be hilarious I'd love to know what website they found that on have to be the shade room or something else you know it's like no so in your career kink career whether it be professionally or personally what's been your biggest failure and what did you learn from that oh good god hmm hmm hmm hmm you mean an actual case or philosophy or practice or any of the above okay I did not reach out and get the network again I cannot reiterate this enough networking you know friend circles poly certain you know whatever you want to call it is so important because we get stuck in her head sometimes and think you know I could do it you know I'm super human and I can do all of this stuff and they're when there's so many people out there going let me help you and you know what that was true in both my kinky life and in my professional life I didn't get mentors until way later down the line in regards to the legal things um now I'm talking like you know two or three years in a private practice and then in my kink life I started out with really good mentors and I always held other people up to them and unfairly doing so because in doing so I possibly missed out on opportunities to learn that I might not have had you know just because they might not have been able to stand up to these these paragons these pillars of the Atlanta community didn't mean they didn't have anything to offer um and so I was so set on you know people talk about the relationship escalator be careful of that when it comes to mentorship or teaching or learning you know that's why I get you know my panties will not exist in panties in a net because yeah a lot of conventions are you know munches or whatever won't let you teach unless you have this many years experience well first of all how the hell you go now right you know people can lie about that um and people with several decades of experiences end up being you know creeps and predators and consent violators we've all seen that across the country lately um you know so it's like if somebody has the absolute guts to stand up and say I want to talk about this you know what you listen to them because you never know when you might have their baby something that you can learn from them I love working with younger attorneys who are scared to death at this point because they see my trial skills and they see me you know walking with confidence in all of this but just every once in a while you see that glimmer and hold on to that glimmer because that is what is going to enable folks like us that know what we know to pass it on you know to the the future generations as supposed to just becoming old and bitter dozing out and saying you know what screw y'all I'm gonna take all my knowledge and you know go to the grave with it with to me that's the most insane there I go again able to turn that is the most backwards thing that anybody can do is live this life for decades and have seen the history been a part of the history you know all of this and then they get discouraged with the younger generation because every older generation gets discouraged with the newer generation every time and they don't push past that and pass the knowledge down because if people don't remember history they're doomed to repeat it that is such a true statement and especially in this community that is absolutely true so each one teach one go out there even if you've got two other people to talk to go talk to those two people go do the thing if you've got something to say say it and don't be afraid to do so I mean one of the things I say all the time is length of time in the lifestyle does not equal knowledge uh who went to church I mean especially lately when we had two years of quarantine where nobody was doing anything does that count as experience or not right and who was that experience with just the people you were in quarantine with you mean to tell me whenever COVID was raging you went out and did pick up play I believe in it because there was nowhere open to do that I mean come on really so yeah no no I'm completely with you I am so lucky so blessed so fortunate to be one of those people that are long in the tooth and in the experience and that's why I still I don't have a need to go out and teach for like marketing or anything anymore I just do it because I love it and you know getting the different you know people look at the United States and and they frequently say you know oh well you don't travel outside of your own country well we kind of don't have to because I'm telling you right now the culture the language the food the because you can tell a lot a lot a lot of things about the food you're eating right and and the the togetherness and people's different ideas about family and friends and trust all vary from region to region it's different in Atlanta than it is from Chicago then it is from New York then it is from Portland then it is to San Diego I would know I have taught in every single one of those places I just just wound off because it's all different and that's what I love about teaching is just going around and you know telling people and learning learning so much from them from the the the newer people or from the people that think they're new and they're really not like I was one woman I was I don't remember I think this might have been Kinky College in Chicago and she was talking about you know I'm new and she was a S type and I think she came to my sassy submission class and she was like oh well you know I'm new in the lifestyle you know it's like oh okay you know how long you've been doing this you know well it's my dominant I'm with now you know only a couple of years and I'm like okay cool well you know whenever I was married though yeah and she'd been married prior you know they had gotten a divorce for like 20 some odd years and she described to me their relationship I'm like you know that was a power exchange right just because you didn't call it that doesn't mean it wasn't you know that's how she knew protocols and how to serve him meeting her ex-husband you know and all of this and I'm like you might want to give yourself a little more credit than what you're giving yourself and yeah I think she's a presenter now a teacher and I think that's awesome yeah I had a play partner once who I think was in the lifestyle like 30 years or something but up until while we played together she had only played with her husband ex-husband I don't recall so knowledgeable but had never negotiated the scene with anybody oh yeah so I have a story about that okay eat story time with ladies deal because I'm from the south in the like telling stories yay her ray yeah so I gosh this would have been 2018 I was mentoring a small group of you know S types and we you know the great the great ex-alters lady seal is pouring forth all of the knowledge right yeah uh-huh and they said well lady seal how do you do pick up play I said excuse me how do you do pick up play I don't do pick up play well why not because everything that I do is so dangerous and edgy I don't in honest gosh I don't and they said well how are you supposed to teach us if you don't do that and I was like good demon fine so I went to send in the city one of the last ones that they held in Las Vegas and I went out there got on the the cruising section of their app and did the thing with three different people in one night because you know me and and then helped somebody the next day hone his single tail in my in my own hotel room um you know his single tail skills and all this and I came back with all of this knowledge why because people asked the question you know she never had any sort of negotiation experience for all intents and purposes and all reality I didn't either because I knew everybody I played with four years before I played with them or we grew together and so having just this brand spanking see what I did there brand spanking new people to play with and you know really having to learn the difference between inclusionary and exclusionary negotiations and how important that is um and it's it's it's it was a fantastic learning experience for me and I actually developed my negotiations class not soon after that so I mentioned what what of my catchphrases is what are some of your catchphrases oh my goodness don't consent I do not consent to any searches officer preserving your fourth amendment rights um we were uh officer we were having adult kinky consensual uh uh yeah don't kinky consensual sex uh by Jesus at all the time my videos and in law in the law class um but if you're talking on a non professional level um each one teach one that's what I was taught by lady dee and pop a dug in all the people at the people exchanging powerhouse here in Atlanta and the late 90s and of course it comes from you know folks before them but it really is true if every single human in this community went and taught just one thing you know and it doesn't have to be like an obvious thing you know maybe a conflict resolution technique that other people may not practice you know master's able to the class on that last night I'm sorry I missed it I was at work but like or just just the smallest little thing you know oh you know uh you run a scalpel down somebody's body like this well how about like this you know or anything if you go and spread the the knowledge you know you you get the knowledge you keep the knowledge you grow it and you share it you know maybe that'll be my new catchphrase I have one on my fet life that's actually really good about knowledge but yeah I mean if I had to distill everything down to one cute expression it would be each one teach one always always got to um so I'm recalling from when I've taken this class in the past from you there were protocols you suggested if you know the police show up at the dungeon or you're playing at home or something like that uh do you want to talk about those I could distill that down really quickly um if you were made to talk to law enforcement always be polite um you know they're on a bell curve too you've got the ones that are in the life that know exactly what's going on and they're just having to you know make the the call that they were told to make and then there's the murderers you know on the other side and hopefully you're not encountering them um but you know from the most part everybody just wants to go home safe be with their families you know at the end of the day and so if you end up having to speak with law enforcement that that was where the second of the phrases came in you know tell them we were having adult meaning everybody's over the age of 18 kinky and people kind of have an idea of what that is these days consensual consent is not codified in you know legal code yet but we're getting in there sex and whether you're having sex or not it kind of gives them an idea you know we got a little slap and tickle going on here yeah that's exactly what's going on and I have found that unless it's extreme circumstances they're gonna go okay as long as everybody that they talk to that was involved in the situation has you know substantially similar stories um now one person is standing there giving these robotic answers because that's what they remember lady still saying and the other person's like hey I'm super cool you know in all this that might throw up a red flag but for all intents and purposes as long as everybody keeps a cool head and you know they are respectful and they just you know give them the straight story then yeah most of the time they're able to walk away um they want to search anything you know always say I do not consent to any searchist officer whether you do or not by the way don't um so that that preserves your Fourth Amendment search and seizure rights because they have to have a reason to search a person or a reason to search a bag or a reason to search a car your hotel room and if that you know level of um you know if that standard has not been met then whatever it is that they find gets kicked out that whole fruit of the poison is tree you've heard on law in order 14,000 times that's not that's not inaccurate but you have to preserve your Fourth Amendment rights by saying I do not consent to any searches and always that officer at the end because that's polite Gotcha that is the shortest version of that I've ever given I'm like woo alright I was gonna say it's been some of that information I've been able to translate well for like for myself in my daily life of work especially when interacting with either law enforcement or different things like that for various reasons and it's been all right I've taken this class a few times um always managed to learn um I thought I would take detailed notes or took to detailed notes the first time around but apparently each time I managed to take even more notes and pick up even more things and such like that um but I've been you know it's been it's been rather helpful especially in the you know how do you engage and how you talk and what you say and what you not say um you know that's been especially rather helpful or you know including uh keeping clients calm of hey we're not gonna you know freak the fuck out we're you know we're gonna take a breath in these sets of i need you to not have you know yourself rambling and you know here um you know i'm immensely flattered that it helped my pleasure to serve um you know anybody who's been to my classes I always say that again and you know or I see people in the hallway you know like hey you coming to my class no I took it last year okay but it's always different and the people who have been repeat customers so to speak realize that that's the case because like the fundamentals like the constitutional US constitutional fundamentals like Fourth Amendment search and seizure right um unless some law like drastically changes then it's that part's gonna be the same but all the stories and all the different iterations that come out after that are going to be different you know uh oh god whenever rovers is weighed was being stripped there was a change to the Miranda warning that people didn't even know about I didn't even know about it because I was to be raising hell about rovers is weighed and somebody in one of my classes I want to say it was implored or they're like hey you know blah blah about Miranda and I'm like what and meta is always my you know uh legal researcher whenever I give my classes and he was like oh you've got to read this they're no longer required to give you to Miranda is you like at all now you do have the right to remain silent still everything you say can it will be used against you you know etc etc all of it's still true but they are no longer required to verbally say that to you so now there's no more oh well I said all this before my Miranda rights it gets kicked out stuff and that happened whenever the rovers is weighed kerfuffle was going on for those months and it was like oh look it here over here at the horrible things we're doing to rovers is weighed don't look at over here what we're doing to Miranda yeah that's that's the scary wildness and you know it's in no lawyers perfect no judges perfect you know so whenever I say that you know I didn't know people are like oh my gosh you didn't know no I was too busy fighting for my uterus thanks you know and what is allowed to go in and out of it and so yeah there was a lot of look over here at this and they were busy you know around the corner doing other stuff and that a lot of people even now are surprised to hear about so yeah that's the kind of stuff you have to look out for I mean even the citizens you know even as late people outside the law you have to look out for that stuff I'm sure you've encountered similar things in your profession too where things change and nobody knows it yeah definitely it's happened I would like every for example when perifil you was taken out or not taken out modified there are still people out there who are practicing out of the old DSM and are still diagnosing people that way and you know you just want to beat him over the head with it but you know that's not consensual so we're not gonna do that so before we transition into our the part of the show we like to call inside the Kinkster studio is there anything else you would like to add to the legal part of this show now I mean if you're curious in regards to what specifically changed in regards to the model penal code great big lawn nerds out there I love every one of you because I'm one too you can go to the NCSF's website and look up the consent counts initiative and they have the actual parts of the model penal code because if you've looked at laws or code or anything you know every single line of every paragraph is numbered you know in all of this and you can look that up and download it and and have your little PDFs and all that stuff and read all about it it's interesting work and it's you know it's a living breathing thing and it's evolving every day so I wanted to make sure that if people are like hey I want to know more that's how you do it go to the NCSF's website or just google NCSF consent counts and boom it's all over your web browser all over your web browser and I will drop a link into the show notes next to that and the kinkin poly professionals website as well as your social medias thank you does it guys say if people have further questions on like any expansion on that can they reach out to you a fet life you can reach out to me for anything my life is an open book I might not respond in a timely fashion matter of fact I may or may not have some messages um a fet life inbox that are your old you know I'm just saying um not like legal stuff don't don't don't do that no but like you know personal questions all this other stuff I promise you I will get back to you it might pop up in your inbox a couple of years later you'll be like oh my god I totally forgot I asked that this is awesome um hopefully this is awesome I don't know I guess it depends on what the answer is um but yes reach out to me for anything and I'll be more than glad to entertain it as I have the uh capacity because I definitely have the capability and the willingness awesome so what is your secret origin story into kink into kink hmm well I have had kinky sex since but the first time I ever well yeah pretty much since the first time I ever had it I just didn't know it there was always a power disparity there or at least a power uh and when I say disparity I don't mean in a negative way you know somebody was always the top somebody was always the bottom and most of the time I was the bottom um but it goes even deeper than that um I am autistic and you know one of I call them my superpowers but one of my um gifts of autism is I have an extremely high pain tolerance I remember whenever I was and as I had to have been three or four um back whenever dinosaurs roamed the earth and there was no such things as like the piercing pagoda you actually had to go to a jeweler who would you know pierce her ears sometimes with a needle sometimes with a gun and my parents you know wanted to take me to get my ears pierced and they told me all about it and they said okay so this this big girl this teenage girl is gonna get her a stem before you and she's really brave you know and and watch her get it done and then you'll have an idea of what's going on and I'm like okay so she's ballin and crying and you know blah blah and all this other stuff my parents look at me and say are you sure you want to do this I'm like sign me up and so I sit there there was a numbing crane there was none of that back then and they shot the earring through my ear and I just kind of looked down I'm like is that all you got like like where's the fire um and so I learned at a very very young age that I was a masochist that is of course continued on to this day and so that turned into you know the power exchange during sex which eventually turned into the sedum esochism during sex and you know I wanted to learn more about it so in their early 90s I started reading about it and and found that newfangled thing called the internet yes it was newfangled back then and then I found Yahoo groups and then the people exchanging power group and down the rabbit hole I fell and here I am today all right what is three words that describe your play intense passionate bloody yeah it usually in some blood not necessarily blood play but yes blood play but not necessarily on purpose met and I play very intensely but yes we're very intense passionate people y'all know and yeah when we play we play hard and so and I tell people this all the time you know when the cops come to your door make sure that you're covered you know from your neck to your wrist to your ankles and I say that to both sides of the slash because if you play like I do it's a you know kind of a crapshoot as to who's gonna have blood on them who's gonna have open wounds so yeah so I would say intense passionate and bloody your favorite oh my favorite yeah so ask your favorite question ask my favorite question all right some of my favorite question I'd love to ask people what is your favorite curse word I'm going through all the list that George Carlingay right fuck is a really good punctuation marker can be but you know that you have crossed a line with me when I use mother fucker and you know for me it's not necessarily a word as much as a state of mind and language because I'm sure up there y'all hear my accent especially when I say y'all in ain't tested ain't one time I thought it was funny but like whenever I get angry like the south Alabama where I was raised comes out or sometimes the cagin because I was raised for a substantial amount of time in my youth in Baton Rouge and the New Orleans area and all that and I it slip into that and meta has always said when I can't understand you anymore it's time to run I'm like yeah pretty much that's that's pretty much it but yeah motherfucker he loves it whenever I get to that point so we'll stick with with a a tie between focus punctuation and mother fucker as the actual purgewardive so all right so last question is my favorite question ask if you had to if you had to have sex with one muppet which muppet would it be in one well it's funny you should say that I have a thing I have a middle and I do not like crossing sex with children things so that would be none I can't do it yeah so like and here's the funny part my middle is a darkling I will have sex in middle headspace but like if you send me you know a picture of kermin on the cross and miss piggy beat him in her you know her bds and m outfitting all this as I've gotten 15 million times right it just squicks me out it's like the weirdest that I know it makes no sense I have tried to break that down and unpack that more times than I would care to count and I have just said since we're allowed to say fuck fuck it and just let me be who it is that I am now where's the line I don't know you might send me a meme or I've done this with meadow where I've sent him something he's like wait this doesn't cross the line are you kidding me with this and I'm like of course not and he's like um I have questions I'm like I'm sure you do uh god lord oh well you know okay let me see if I can find a loophole because I'm a lawyer right so here's the loophole you ready so David Bowie starred in what was it the black crystal no oh I'm sorry no he started in the car yeah it was blabbering the labyrinth yeah that had muppets in it so technically you know if everybody else can be a Disney if if frankenferter from you know rocky horror can be a Disney princess then David Bowie could be a muppet muppet and I'm totally down with that there you go that's fair that works that's good get out of that all right well thank you very much for coming on the show it's been great to talk to you about bdsm and the law this is my absolute pleasure for our listeners that we have upcoming classes on dollar store domination knifelay electroplay nice body language coming up both virtually and in person check our website for locations and details but that's it that's our show say goodnight little bit Can I get a little bit?