Ep15 - "Kinky, Schminky! Jewish Perspectives on That Thing We Do" With Laura Antoniou

Ep15 - "Kinky, Schminky! Jewish Perspectives on That Thing We Do" With Laura Antoniou

What's the outlook on sex and kink according to the Jewish faith? What about masturbation and gender? We schmooze with Laura Antoniou who has the chutzpah to answer these questions and more. 

Laura Antoniou's publishing career started with editing the gaming/ media magazine Gateways and anonymous smut of all genres back in the 80s. Now, she's known for her Marketplace BDSM series, her award-winning mystery, The Killer Wore Leather, and many other works including Silk Threads, a sexy, time-hopping Japanese fantasy collaboration with Cecilia Tan and Midori. She's taught sexuality topics worldwide for decades, including newer workshops themed around mixing kink with geekery or Judaism. Check out her Patreon for any new work or excavated out-of-print stories!

• Facebook.com/Laura.Antoniou
• Patreon.com/kvetch
• TikTok.com/@Kinky.Kvetch
• LauraAntoniou.tumblr.com

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SINagogue hosts and guests are subject matter experts but not *the* expert. We believe outside of violating consent, there's no wrong way to kink except to think your way is the only way. The show is presented from a RACK (Risk-Aware Consentual Kink) point of view, not SSC (Safe Sane Consentual) because each person’s definition of safe is different based on their risk profile. Use of the word "safe" on the show fits our definition, and that doesn't have to be your definition. 

Reminder, we try to make our content as inclusive as possible regardless of gender, orientation, role in the lifestyle, etc., but we do inherently speak from our own point of view. We want to learn from our mistakes. If you feel like we said something offensive, let us know. Reach out via our website or call us at 469-269-0403.

Today’s show was brought to you in part by the letters S and M, and the Number 69. 

*San Dimas High School Football Rules*

Chapters

• 1:35 Introductions
• 1:36 Introductions
• 14:34 Why Jewish?
• 21:48 Sorry About That Penis
• 24:57 Why Don't We Constantly Bone?
• 34:29 Quote On Kink
• 44:35 More Kinky Jews?
• 55:21 On Whacking It
• 1:07:44 More Than Two Genders
• 1:12:56 Inside The Kinkster's Studio

Transcript

1:14

Hosting with me today is my partner my ADHD squirrel Wrangler my Submissive my brat my little my pony or just my little pony The Spock to my Kirk Little bit this is episode this is episode number 15 with us today is Laura and to new I say that right. I say that right Okay, okay to talk to us about G-d on that thing we do But first a word from our sponsor Laura and to news publishing career started with editing the gaming slash media magazine gateways Nonamis smut of all genres back in the eighties now. She's known for her marketplace BDSM series her award winning mystery The killer war leather and many other works including silk threads a sexy time hopping Japanese Fantasy collaboration with Cecilia tan and Madori She's taught sexuality topics worldwide for decades including newer workshops themed around Mixing kink with geeky or Judaism patreon dot com slash that's for any for any new work or excavated out of print stories Thank you for being on the show tell us about kinky shmink. Well, hello there you two and Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. I Decided to start teaching classes on the Jewish perspective on kink because I found that It was disturbing the number of people in the scene who would appropriate Rituals from cultures they were not connected with that ball um And being Jewish I thought there's plenty of kinky shit and Judaism. Oh, can I say shit on this? Oh, absolutely Feel free to swear up a fucking storm. I don't give a shit I did it as plenty a kinky shit in there and I can write about it and I can talk about it and so this would be something new and Indeed, it's so new. It's it's a bit of a problem getting the classes booked But my leather satyr is very popular among kinky shoes Nice. All that all that Leather satyr. Yes, it's called al-adim haenu Which hanibu means once we were slaves Okay, and it is a satyr for the kinky community that my wife and I researched and wrote together and Got it reviewed by several of our rabbi friends some kinky some not So it is in fact a kosher satyr it has all the ritual aspects you need in one and it has special parts in it that I think speak to people who are into bdsm Especially those who are into how a dynamic relationships Okay, that sounds really cool Not gonna lie, that sounds really cool Thanks, I'd be happy to send you one or you could download it for free from my patreon. Oh perfect So so overall what is the Jewish attitude philosophy on kink and sex that the Jewish philosophy on sex is Massively different than the traditional Christian philosophy One of the things that Judaism lacked is the concept of original sin In Christianity the idea is that the original couple Adam and Eve had sinned by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge whatever And because of that men were cursed to work for a living a boy and a women were cursed to bear children in pain and to rot Ernie from guys Which is an odd sat and odd kind of curse if you ask me um And I had not been afflicted by this curse So I could have asked that it whatever sin it is it hasn't passed on to me But since Christianity was burdened with this concept Which by the way in Genesis is not mentioned as something that will continue for generations the generations of Humanity who you know didn't even know Adam or Eve or wouldn't even know them from Adam and Eve They kind of burdened Women with the concept that their Wiles their ability to convince men to do things is Bad and that the sin that Adam and Eve really committed was they banned That's where my Catholic guilt comes from huh and You know it's all because Of the line and and they saw that they were naked and I don't know I guess some people looking at that said well though an acre of course they were gonna have sex Eterism because not interpret it that way Judaism interprets it as You have to so in knowledge that is beyond your understanding But more importantly you were given a directive and you disobeyed bad humans I get a dress you in leather and send you you out of the garden and that's it God does not condemn them for having sex God does not say that women are bad for tempting men forever and ever and ever God says Adam Eve you fucked up. I'm kicking you out of the garden. It ends there It is not a generational sin and it is not the form of sexism that Christianity is burdened with and so without original sin Jewish perspectives on women and Sexuality are vastly different than Christian for one Jews think that women are inherently sexier than men and that They are Not required to have children, but if a man marries woman he is required to please her sexually Also Sexual relations are not a sin They're one of the only activities that Jews can take part in that has no blessing Before doing it and we bless everything we just the truth we just the wine we just the bread we bless fruits With breast picking a shit Okay, I'm I mean yeah, it's a blessing. It's a great blessing by the way It's just fabulous. It's like You know plays is God creative of our bodies who made our bodies with entrances and exits and if one stops working were fried Seriously, yeah, yeah, so That's amazing so Sex has no blessing because it isn't a heritley a Spiritual act it is a mitzvah Especially when committed by people who are married to each other And it's the marriage part that you know we trip over in a modern sense being well, I'm queer. I'm also poly and To eat it technically. I'm omnisexual. I think people are attractive Regardless of their gender or gender presentation So obviously it would be a mitzvah for me to have sex with my wife any night of the week It is a special mitzvah for me to have sex with her on this Sabbath and the earliest day so That's a big difference. It's why I get upset when people say things like Judeo Christian Number one, I'm not a Judeo You know to Fine Jewish Fine Judeo not so much and second of all, they really isn't that much in common people tend to think because the original what the Christians call the old testament what the tenac in the Torah and Genesis and the Christian Scriptures, they think that because we read similar books we believe the same things but it's not true at all and When you start out with the fact that sexuality is a blessing and a positive thing and something to which an adult human is expected to desire It kind of changes a lot of the philosophy around sexuality and That was where I started and that that's that that's the basic premise Which I really don't go into a lot in the in the classes because It's it means to other topics, but it is a very important thing to note and it's the reason why modern Jewish perspectives on sexuality I consider to be extremely progressive in an abromic religion Gotcha so no pure so no pure tanical guilt because no puritans Well, you know, there is that Jewish puritans tended to be celibate and leave in private communities by themselves the way the Come out with a prophecy every once in a while Yeah, that completely makes sense Yeah, because if you're going to be pure tanical don't be pure tanical But don't bother the neighbors Which is also important to you listening to you explain all of this has just made me think of just different things from my own background in history of Hi-ho is raised which was um, I Was raised Catholic, but there's influence of like Baptist and just general non-denominational Christian and I ended up marrying a Luther minister at one point in time in my life um and I know that must have been different Uh Just we've had um you know and knowing some of that and just Understanding and there's also Jehovah's Witness in my family so you know a All-around religious My essentially of just a mix of a hodgepodge of things and then even you know just knowing what I know from My ex-husband when he was going through his classes at Seminary and what they were teaching and what you've explained I'm like wow that is totally and completely vastly different as to Just even from you know Lutheranism to you know Jewish and what you're describing is So much more like wow this makes complete sense and normal not Shamed for enjoying something that is meant to be enjoyed and taking part of you know part of life and part of Your own self and having ownership of it compared to No, don't it's a dirty thing. It's a dirty secret um and any way shape or form If this is true and that it's one of the things that attracted me to Judaism Um, would you wish women? Uh, because I did not grow up to wish um, but Uh In my life it does turn out that a remarkable number of women I was attracted to and a couple of men uh were mostly Jewish And one of the things that attracted me to the women was their confidence in their sexuality They they had never been told that sex was dirty or that uh They had to be modest in a way That meant keeping men away from them because men would ruin them the modesty of uh An observant Jewish woman who takes on the mitzvah of modesty is not to promote her virtue But it is to express her Mm-hmm her faith It was an expression of the way she prays And how she interacts with the world and it's sort of it's just the same as as wearing a yamaka or a head scarf Or anything that uh you were to signal to other people this is the way in which I Interact with others And so I respect a modesty that is not forced on people Yes, yes, right, so yes, yes No, I mean because if you're making that choice If you're absolutely making that choice to mindfully be modest because It's still then expresses your confidence in yourself Not it's been forced on me Then yeah, that absolutely makes sense And I can totally completely respect that So me not so much. I'm not modest at all I mean that's fair I'm just a big old attention who are There's nothing wrong with that either So then would the uh with no shame attached to the act of sex is kink just as natural as sex Kink is something that occurs it wouldn't My bias would address it as saying one of two things either they'd say I don't do it because it might degrade your partner All right, or do whatever you want as long as everyone's happy And of course choose to disagree a lot You can find rabbinical arguments Bechawan literally for centuries But one thing they do pretty much agree on is that someone Does not partake in the pleasures of life Is not fulfilling the mitzvah of being human And one of the pleasures in life is to have consensual sexual relations and Most modern jim is would tell you as long as it's consensual and as long as no one is being harmed No one's cheating You know no one's lying there is no uh Economic or other oppression going on Then it's fine Why my favorite rabbinic stories is about A rabbi who is taking a trip And he announced his two his village he is going to go and see the elves And his students say but rabbi that sounds so frivolous You we need you here to teach us Torah and you know to be a serious scholar and to lead us and he replies When I die I talk to God God is not going to ask me why for those two weeks did you not teach Torah God will ask me but did you see my out And I love that story Because it says that if you believe in a supernatural creator which I don't but if you did The creation is meant for us to enjoy And that's why there's a blessing on seeing a natural phenomena Famous place like the elf I mean I'd love that there was an eclipse last year because we got to say the blessing for seeing an eclipse and how often we get to do that I have to look it up but you know So yes generally in kink The concept is it's fine as long as no one's hurt no one's lied to Great cause it's going to be happy the Trip comes in when you bring the point of marriage and I'm very progressive in my Judaism they don't care As long as no one's being hurt blah blah blah blah blah In more conservative forms they don't care and they do say that sex is best Within a married relationship And okay You know if if you're clean with that I know there was a people who become Monogamous upon getting married because to them that's what being married is And so if you agree with that definition Then fabulous jurel has no problem with you And if you doubt then you should be a reconstructionist or reformed you Okay, you know just do what you want and don't care what the rabbi is saying But because there is no ultimate judge there is no priest to go and confess to It is not a sin to have sex It's not something we Admit to on the one day a year that we admit to admit to our communal sins young kepor It's not mentioned It's rewrite we start out we betrayed trusts we Didn't save the environment, you know We we we did shitty things to each other as human beings No one in there is and then we had lots of sex And we had kicky sex So it's not something Soon yeah I'm so sorry about their penis Wow it's a shame Hashtag accurate I'm sure But again it's sort of like getting away from original sin once you have that talked away That sex in itself is not a sin oh my god that just opens the door for so much doesn't it? Well yeah Because then you get to define what sex is Which that can be defined so many different ways I have the perfect definition okay Sex is any activity that increases the potential for orgasm Oh Interesting it does not require more than one person It does not require orgasm It does not require penetration or intercourse of any kind But let me tell you I have had When he of sex that did not involve other people wrong Fenty of sex that did not involve intercourse or fucking And certainly plenty of sex that did not involve penises and vaginas getting smushed together No matter how many times I did that with Barbie Oh but usually I had my kendals with each other and I took GI Joe for Barbie I mean I could totally completely understand why I just thought she'd be into someone butcher You know she wanted a girlfriend she had girlfriend Yeah Yeah absolutely I'm just thinking that you know yeah all of the really cool shit Right someone once challenged me and said well then for me during the tango is Is having a sexual act and I said yep That's exactly what it is for a lot of people Why did they why do you think they love tangos? Have you ever seen the atoms is duetango they're having sex? That is absolutely I would definitely agree with that because when they do it it is You are putting all kinds of emotion and your whole body into it You are fully clothed and you are socially acceptable in front of others But what it is is pure absolute sex Oh you are totally banging So yeah is it with that is my definition of sex It really allows for a lot Not a bad thing No not at all That seems to create much more freedom It does and it creates this situation If as humans we're designed to have sex and enjoy it And we can do so then why don't we do it at the time Well it's because in that whole pregnancy thing And Judaism you are not allowed to intentionally endanger someone else's life Okay That is pregnancy But intentionally endangering someone else's life And therefore The first commandment to go and be fruitful and multiply Apply as only to men But not to women Women are not required to have babies Men however are kind of tired of this should Well that creates a little conundrum right there Exactly So the rabbi is argued that's why women are so damn sexed up They are sexual voracious So that they will permit their men to have sex with them A lot to make a baby they'll take the risk And um The men are supposed to pleasure them So the women wanted to do it more Then as a really different attitude then You should only have sex when you're having a baby And when you can't have babies you probably shouldn't have sex anymore You know So both control absolutely okay Absolutely okay There is the risk for the woman Yeah so fine Underage sex not okay it increases the potential to harm another person Um Obviously Wrape force course sex or uh their sins Um Men are not allowed to force their wives to have sex However Women are required to get banged on a regular schedule Now they've wrote it up there's a calendar We seriously Yep Yep hard on hold on I gotta look it up but here it is Okay Uh Women's agency and desires are so represented in the townlady There's a chart Wasting how often a man is supposed to be pleasuring their wife Depend mean on his archipelition, hell, and life responsibilities Okay And this is what it says But times for conjugal duty prescribed in the Torah are For men of independent means Every day So I'm sorry You're rich, you're in rick You're banging your women every day This is your job You're good For laborers Twice a week And that's at least once on the Sabbath Possibly twice because you know it's It's a long day And you know maybe again In midweek Quickie Because they're labor they're tired Sure So twice a week For donkey drivers So think of a truck driver Who does mid-range routes Once a week Okay So you're a driving for a company that gets you home every weekend That's when you fuck Okay Hammer drivers Now you're talking your long-range truckers Yeah Okay Once every 30 days So get your ass home Put sputters to that camera Your woman's waiting Of course And for sailors Once in six months Huh And it tightens it up And has like Stuff in there about the husband's health The wife's health The relative ages And then sums it up by saying So we see So we are taught That sexual pleasure Is a wife's right And a husband's obligation Oh Oh I like Very nice Yeah Yeah Now we're talking Of course I mean because that is Totally and completely opposite of what is being taught in Christianity Why I literally I grew up with friends who were told By their mothers That they shouldn't make too much noise during sex Because they didn't want their Husbands to think they were Horrished That bagels my mind I mean I get it but that still boggles my mind I'm like Now I Is so sex light and so turned And then Yeah You can't even imagine that it could be good for another woman That this is advice you would give to your daughter Like read a fucking book Yeah(Laughter) I could like a man's song(Laughter) Same Same If you don't act like you enjoy it They won't know when you don't Is that the thought? I guess I guess It's for the same reason That I tell people I tell women Stop faking orgasms Oh yeah Mm-hmm Like I know you wanted to do it Because You want to, you know Get the server with it With partners done You want to be nice to them and flat it Whatever Don't Right I didn't think it Because otherwise How are they going to learn what gets you off Yeah Even if what you have to say is What gets me off Is later on Me with my vibrator But so don't really About my orgasm While we're doing our kinky shit Right That's fair I used to say things like That's my partner all the time Because I found orgasms really distracting Mm-hmm Hm Yeah They kind of took my mind off what I was doing Um And there's nothing wrong with being blissed out But I just assumed being blissed out at the end Mm-hmm So that was my preference I have friends who were like I'm sorry if I didn't come 30 times today I feel Mount No literally She had a 30th birthday We made her come 30 times Nice I don't know how she lived I mean honestly My bits were just fall off at that point So Talk about overstimulation But hey she lived it Mm-hmm I see Across the room my wife is smiling Oh yeah that's a good party A good party Mm-hmm It's always good where your partners help you out With these projects Got it Yes It's like hey I found this celebrate Yeah I'm a(laughs) As I say the lesbian squad with the strap-ons are ready to serve(laughs) Well you know they don't ever go limp So you're good(laughs) It's always handy when scheduling a celebratory gang bang To have some lesbians in reserve(laughs) How duly noted(laughs) Okay Cause you never know duly noted So speaking of A failure to perform In the volume of time would Diverted to written contracts It says Cause Ed weddings have a contract Of my life and I have one It's very nice If a husband refuses to perform His marital obligation In a loving, romantic and sexually pleasing way His wife has the right to demand a divorce And receive her ketuba settlement Oh wow It's actually one of the few things she could demand a divorce For that aren't abuse Yeah It's like if he steals from her If he harms her or their children If he withholds sustenance from her(laughs) It does not support her in the way that their contract Agreed on Those she can complain about But otherwise, incompatibility is not enough Unless it's sexual And boy, that's gotta be uncomfortable Cause you gotta go to a Tribunal basically A three-radmice and tell that Awkward Yeah Yeah, right, awkward Hey, my husband's a lousy lay Yeah, right So I was looking for a quote on the kink Here we go Since a man's wife is permitted to him He may act with her in any manner whatsoever He may have intercourse with her However they desire And kiss any organ of her body they wish He may have intercourse with her Naturally or unnaturally Ooh(laughs) Provide Right? Provided he does not expel semen To no purpose Nevertheless, it is an attribute of piety That a man should not act in this manner With untamed levity So I guess that makes jokes When you bang it(laughs) Well honey, that leaves you out(laughs) Right there, right there goes half my sex away(laughs) Cool I'm wondering about the, uh, what was it? Expell semen without undue purpose What does that mean? Is a facial undue purpose or not? I'm afraid it is Yeah I'm afraid it would be Unless of course The woman is not Supposed to be bearing children Well, well then your comment Injection is the semen has no purpose Well, I mean if it's a facial The semen has the purpose of like, you know Helping your skin grow because Perteen Or you know, that glowing thing But maybe I mean, it's a stretch, but you know It's a stretch(laughs) I can run that by my rabbi So you just go and do it I don't know you know(laughs) But, uh, I might make a brush say, you know If that's a goal, I'm happy to help(laughs) Making rabbi's brush was my hobby(laughs) Yeah Actually, it's my wife's hobby She made the rabbi who married us brush When, uh, she wrote a story That was included in a collection called"Frynate the rabbi relays"(laughs) And so, well, my client bound Literally I sponsored a kiddish, I sponsored a, uh, A salute, uh, a toast to my wife For the Sabbath when her story was published And so the rabbi was reading"Tonight's kiddish is sponsored by Rorantineu in honor of Karen Tamu's story In the book Friday the rabbi wore late(laughs) And then, it was the time that Karen sponsored a kiddish When the killer-worn weather came out(laughs) At that time, we were going to a different synagogue We had a male rabbi And she sponsored the kiddish And he's reading it out He's like, "In honor of her wife, Lilla, Whose new book, The Killer-Worn Leather, is out this week So next to me, in the audience in the synagogue This woman, Lee and Zoarant says,"You wrote out bad?"(laughs) And I said, "Yes" And she said, "What's it called?" The Killer-Worn Leather"But Killer-Worn Leather?" Oh no He's like, "Yo, boo!""Oh, like, do you think I'm sorry?"(laughs)"Is it like 50 shades of gray?"(laughs) And I said, "Hindoon, except mine is intentionally funny."(laughs) And she elders her husband And she's like, "I don't like that guy That can't have the real life job Is it on Anderson or anything?"(laughs) Me and I, the rabbi is standing up there Just looking like he's about to faint(laughs) He is not sure whether he's going to rap Or or or look horrified He's just kind of froze them And I sat there and I was like, "Cut you!"(laughs) She bad it too Oh, that's even better Yeah, the next week I was there She was like, "I looked to you up on me internet You've had a very interesting life!"(laughs) I love twos(laughs) Press So yeah, making rabbi's brush, I guess, is our family hobby Yep, that is what brought us together(laughs) That's a good family hobby Well, in addition to writing"Soders and Things" I know what it was supposed to mean But that part about kissing any organ The first thing that popped into my mind was spleen(laughs) Well, I think it's Andy Roehl and famously said"You don't know life until you fucked it through the gallbladder" Oh my gosh(laughs) That was in his Frankenstein movie I might be the only one who has ever actually seen that while sober(laughs) So let me ask this With the Jewish outlook being so positive on sex How can you? Two different thoughts How slash can you? Do like religious play Because everything I've ever seen is dealing with the shame and the tabooness of Christianity's outlook on it Is it possible? Not really Unless you were really playing that you were Christian or some of the religion It is rather famously known that Nazi porn used to be really, really popular in Israel And the reason why is because it is violent, non-consensual and humiliating Whereas Jewish erotica tends not to be And at least that's my theory And also because people who have lived through historic oppression Haley Scars We call it emotional and psychological scars There are sometimes that pop up in sexual fantasies and rare playing and desires that we can't really pinpoint And you know, I'm not a psychiatrist I don't play one on TV But I can say that I have really, really dark fantasies A lot of which have to do with my various identities And it's not because I hate myself But it's because in those fantasies I get to explore things that my actual sex life doesn't include And that includes horror And so Jewish replaying for shame And not really gonna happen much Unless of course you really dig deep And you find some great underutilized holidays That you can use to enact ritualistic pain and suffering And I'm not saying that there's a whole set of rabbis Who frog themselves on your keyboard But there are And their fathers work fucking vicious Do not I'm curious Is she the students use really large strap And no one talks about this because it's like Yeah, but look at this, this is the thing we do in private I like it okay, but What if you didn't though? But what if you didn't They're all rod of kinky observant Jews in New York I'm talking about the orthodox They used to go to the kink clubs the time Now they're mostly higher professionals for the privacy angle But um But yeah, they would be stepping out And I'd be like, you know, the sooner is that you're cheating Mm-hmm I was of course, your wife knows In which case she's probably like Go gay doesn't do whatever sick shit you do and I'm busy Yeah So, you know, what ifs I think that for a kinky life People enacting Jewish aspects of it Are probably more successful using some of the Some of them it's vote as behavior changing things Rather than shame play Like using the period of not having sex As a period to deprive someone as opposed to being A burden burden because the woman has her period I instead instituted As a matter of discipline I'd oh no, proof x number of dives Every month you're not allowed to come or whatever Um you can turn some of the Jewish related behaviors into things that can become kinky later on As you interpret them Gotcha But yeah, the The biggest sexual sin in Judaism that isn't rape is adultery And it's because it's lying There's probably not been a study on this but in your opinion do you feel like The percent of Jews in the kink community is greater than the general population I would say so yes Um, I don't know if there's been a study on it, but I could certainly inquire about it What I can say is that because Uh, Jews are raised to be in a general sense more sex positive Uh, they're more likely to find kink and find it attractive And worthy to go after worthy of seeking Uh, then someone who thinks of sex is inherently bad So many of the things of sex is sinful has an additional barrier to kink That they might have to overcome So it's one less barrier Uh, asso I find that Jewish women for a kinky are And they tend to be pretty successful because they're less shy about stating what they want And ending a relationship when they don't get it Hmm, hmm, okay Unless they get married in which case Marriage is a different thing Sure But yeah, I do I do think that in compared to the general population there are probably more Jews represented in kink Uh, certainly in public kink Hmm Because Don't feel shame about it Like I can see the wheels turning in your head like maybe I should convert No, just even some of the barriers that I've experienced of identifying how I identify um You know going through the different things Um admitting of enjoying, you know, sex and kink and you know lots of sex positive things You know that totally and completely for me kind of explains Why there has been such a barrier onto it just because of Again part of my religious background which is inherently You know ingrained in Like merged Mashed merged mixed there we go. That's the word That uh, you know, it's it's one of those like oh hey, you know that totally and completely Can explain as to you know parts of why this is And why as a grown adult it's taking me longer to do some of the things because of all of that that you know came about informative years And adds to that barrier and adds to that you know um, oh hey, I can actually be more free about this. Wee hee Right but followed by oh shit is this okay So yeah, that's that's where the wheels are going in my head on a lot of that of that part and you know just hearing One learning learning a bunch this evening but at the same time like hearing the fact of oh This is not always something that Is inherently known by many of us when we learn about you know Jewish and Judaism as we go through things like catechism class and they talk about some of the different religions or you know when my ex was going through the Divinity program and They touch on Judaism and note we they leave all of that part out and it's always talks about just piety and Lots of other things because there's so much shame around sex from that Group of people they won't even talk about other people's added positive attitudes on it Sure, I mean there's even so fascinatingly enough there is actually something for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America But there's a infamous what they call page 13 Okay, page 13 in the literally rules and handbook for New pastors who are going through the even evangelical Lutheran Church of America talks about how you are not to have sexual relations with anyone um unless you are married and that is only for procreation and that you should Yeah, and that you need to respect the laws and sanctity of marriage and if it is not performed in marriage then you've broken that rule and if you are found to have broken that rule as a soon to be pastor they can actually revoke you or if you are a pastor and you have and you are single and not married and you have been found to broke to a broken that rule There can be dire consequences aka you can get fired or you know like essentially hey you're you're not good as being a pastor anymore hmm Yeah, that's that's one of those weird things of like how do you get found out is somebody being a peeping Tom well undoubtedly You'd be surprised us to certain things but at the same time like You would hear people just chat about it of Don't tell but I was in so and so's room last night. Oh, yeah, wonder what you were doing. Oh wow, right and You had some of the people who would be like oh, I'm you know telling This that and whomever and sometimes the dire consequences were they took you into the office and you spoke with the dean of the school and you know I Don't do it again to somebody else who Was actually brought in front of the regional bishop for the area of his region and was told he was Too charismatic she killed as a matter yes, too charismatic Um and was not fit to be a pastor and fit to lead and so They did not endorse him so he was not allowed to essentially finish school It's a master's program you're paying for it, but we're not endorsing you you can get you degree But after that you can't act are actually Actually, no, I don't even think he was able to get his master's of divinity I think he ended up with just a master's of theological studies after that Because he wasn't endorsed and was told wow you're not going to finish You can get this degree not the other one because you're not allowed to be a pastor We're not in we're not endorsing you you're done. Yeah, I'm like, well, I'm sure a lot I'm sure a lot of seminaries do want their students to be A bit on less married because it's it's part of the structure of They were originally in their their their faith tradition I've no doubt that the at the Jewish theological seminary that it's like now you shouldn't have sex unless you're married It's probably in there Whether they're actually here enough to go after you that it'll know But of course when I was a kid at the JTS They barely or day no, they didn't or day in women at the time now the leader of JTS is a lesbian So times change and Jews change thank God. Yes Because we wouldn't have the progressive attitude towards sexuality that I've been talking about with you tonight Except for the fact that Jews have no ultimate authority and we argue a lot and no one wins But it creates some really good discussions. Yes, yes it does. It also creates a whole lifetime of learning in a situation where you can literally argue and discuss and learn these things for your entire life and still have new things to look at at the time because the discussion continues. But adding a different perspective and learning different perspectives doesn't necessarily sound that it's a bad thing that actually sounds positive in the sense of you still keep learning and growing. Yeah, and sometimes it's a van swag and sometimes a simple thing can change and then it's dominoes. When same-sex marriage became legal in the United States, that was the last failure for a lot of rabbis to perform the marriages. But our rabbi performed ours in 1998, right? Because her perspective was that it is a Jewish wedding, not a United States government wedding. And when we looked at it that way, we were like, well that's the real wedding, which created a complication for it because we went to Canada when they legalized it in order to get married there. And we went to Toronto and we went to whatever fuel we had to go to to do that. And they asked us, have you been married anywhere else? And I said, well, we had a religious ceremony in the States. And the wind behind the desk said, no, you didn't. And I said, but we did. And she said, no, you didn't because we would count that here. Oh. And I said, oh no, we had a party. We had a party in the States. Yeah, it was not a good-for-and-party actually. Yeah. Nope, never had a wedding. And then we got our marriage certificate. It was the rehearsal. Yeah. Yeah, we even were so sweet. Those were really hard. Had the, yeah, the flip-bran, the dancing and everything. So let me ask this, based on our conversation tonight, I'm guessing the Jewish attitude on masturbation is okay for women, okay for men as long as they don't get off? Well, that would be the sin of Onin. And in the Torah is a guy who jacks off instead of, let me see if I get this right. Fucking his sister-in-law. Yes, because his bitter died and he was obligated to marry her because he was the last son in the house and she had no children. And so the idea was that she would still have children who would inherit what their family would do by marrying her brother-in-law. Or he was like, yeah, not into it. And jacked off instead. And God was really upset with this apparently. Personally, most rabbis would say, yeah, whatever. Again, it's a private behavior that harms no one and they would say it's only a problem if it becomes a mental or emotional problem. If you can't hear it or think about it so much that it disturbs your ability to take care of normal responsibilities or it disturbs your ability to be happy with other people. But otherwise, it's like scratching an edge. That's not a problem, unless it's a problem. And as for women, it doesn't even exist. What?(Laughter) Restoration. All right, no, we're still good. Why? It doesn't exist for y'all, so, you know, do it, do it. Yeah, well, I met a vendor of kosher sex toys and I had to ask, red makes it kosher. Yeah. Right, do you have a medical supervision? And it turns out they did. Wow. Okay, so they went to the tribunal of what the dark men who basically decide these things and said, red would make a sex toy permissible. And one of the guidelines was, "Dil those in vibrators are okay as long as they don't look like a peanut." And I'm like, "Okay." So the dark and shitwood one is all right. Bad dragon is okay. Bad dragon is fine. The dark dick is great, but just can't look like a human penis. And why? Because it might be disrespectful to a man. And I'm like, "Oh, is it a size in shape?" Oh, so, yeah. I don't know. Batteries are going to last a lot longer than I can, so I'll give them that. I know. So I was like, "Oh, they can't look like a dick because it might embellish a man." That's kind of sweet, actually. Yeah. I don't want to make you uncomfortable with my cut-on human dick. Yeah. Mine are bigger than yours. And they come in all kinds of shapes and certain things. They're kind of like shapes. But yeah, they have vibrators. They have really huge, cheap bondage stuff that no one really wants if they actually did bondage, you know, that sort of thing. And lingerie. What's lingerie? Well, because lingerie is good. Including Camp Banana Hammock. Oh. And let me tell you, I just, I don't see the... You just say, "I can't wait so long." Yeah, be mad. Because people in the house... No banana ones. It is just really funny because the models that he had in his catalog were also not human. That would be, you know, a modest. What did he use? He likes to model? Oh, okay. Then... Manicants? Yeah, mannequins, yeah. Sorry, my... Or, you know, my head was kind of like, "Wait, not human. We use, like, you know, a bear? A dolphin? A cow would be used." So we really sent him a bear. So that's what all that buzz was on the internet over the summer. Okay, bestieality, definitely forbidden by Torah. Fair. Absolutely. Because if a man fucks a cow, they both have to die. And that has to be a really dire set, uh, sin if you're killing the cow. Right? Because, you know, cow is money. Sure. And personally, I think the guy should have chosen better because honey, I've had my arms inside a cow. They cannot feel you, honey. Oh, I mean, he borrowed one of his wife's stilldos. It looks like a baby, you know. This is why I shouldn't drink and podcast. Oh, no, this is perfect. I have never seen you laugh with your arms above your head. That's a new one. Who else can I tell you? Or what else would you like to talk about? Oh, oh, Bob, I have a question from the peanut gallery here. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And she is not a lesbian. She just was an intern at the gay synagogue. Oh. Bettina JTS is not a lesbian. And she is just an intern at our gay synagogue. Oh, okay. So, you know, everyone was being rusted after her. Oh. Fair. So you said you converted to Judaism. Which came first, the kink or the Judaism? Oh, I was kinky since I was a kid. You know, I think there are two kinds of people in kink, the type who discover it, and the type who are just born that way, and definitely I'm born that way. When people ask me what my sexuality is, it's Tito masochist. There has never been a time in my life when I imagined pleasure that did not come with a power dynamic attached. And I saw life that way in my life. And for a while, I thought that was really bad. And not because of Christianity. I was raised to Greek Orthodox. And, you know, they definitely think sex is bad. But because I was a feminist. And I was like, well, this is obviously bad that I'm having news. And having news, fantasies, power and pain and bondages and things because feminists don't think that way. And then I found out they absolutely do. So I'm cool. And I got in and myself. And so yes, the sexuality definitely came first. I've had an interest in Judaism since childhood, because I grew up in New York, so surrounded by Jews. My best friend was Jewish and observant. And I went to New York City Public Schools, which had a lot of books on the shelves about Jewish kids. And so I grew up reading things like all the kind family about a family growing up on the lower east side at the turn of the century. Whereas a lot of children in the rest of the United States were reading and we will house on a prairie. Right? So I always had Jewish friends. I'd gone to synagogue many times before I was an adult. I'd been to bar and bar mitzvahs. I'd been to a wedding and a couple of funerals. And my first major mentor in the scene was Jewish. And I respected him a lot for his ethics. And after a while, I realized that any time he was telling me a moral or ethical truth as he saw it, it almost all started with. In the time when it says,"Or, where am I thirder used to say?" Now mind you, this guy was a socialist. He was an atheist. He did not believe in God. He did not practice Judaism. When I told him that I was converting, he was obviously shocked. He was like, "Why Judaism? I think it was a nice." He really liked Quakers. And I told him it was partly because of his moral teachings and had nothing to do with God. And he was like, "All right, I respect that." And so, yeah, I actually met my wife in the middle 90s. And at the time, she thought I was Jewish. I thought she was Jewish. And both of us were in the process of converting. Interesting. We would like to joke that we converted to marry each other, but a lot of people don't get that. But yeah, the Judaism came next. And I'm so glad I did. I feel so much more comfortable in my skin and in my life as a Jew. And I just want to share a lot of the things I've learned with all the communities I'm in, the Kinky, the geeky, etc. And to get people to share their experiences with me as well. I was actually invited to a satire once at Follicon. Who? And I'd never gone to Follicon because they always had it doing Passover because they had it at Easter time and Passover cross each other a lot. All right? And I had them at their satire, so I wasn't going to Follicon one year. But we're having a satire here. And I said, "Okay, I will go to your satire." Do you know it was my sitter?[Laughter] Oh, that's fantastic. I laughed so much when I saw it. I was like, "This is mine." I wrote this.[Laughter] I know very well. I got you. We're good. And then this one, a friend of mine got really smashed that weekend. It was Follicon. And he got lost. And it was at the end of the satire. And he stumbled into the room where we were holding it. And he's three sheets to the wind. And he's this crazy, like, albino-hired Russian, in a freely shut that's open to his puppet. And he comes into the room and he's like, "Is this the party?" And we were just singing "Eliahuanavi" which is the song that you sing for the arrival of Rewaija who comes as a guest at the end of the satire. And so we were like, "Oh, Rewaija, we're going to wear a little bit."[Laughter] And he sat down and had wine. It was great. That's later, Alper. That is fantastic. Yeah. Before we move on to the part of the show, we call inside the Kinksters studios. Is there anything else you would like to share with us on this topic? One of the things that I think Judaism is most open about that people don't know is that it's really expansive on the topic of gender. The rabbis teach that there are six of them. Now, again, there's a lot of disagreement, especially in the descriptions of what those genders are. And because it is an other text, the terminology is, well, insulting at worst and just awkward at best. The terms that are used would be translated as, you know, is a freak of nature, is a... An Andrajine, which is a Greek term for someone who has no gender, a term tome is someone with indeterminate or a covered sexual characteristics, which, to me, describes a lot of intersex people. Yeah. And those are not only identified, they're identified as genders for people who are still Jews. Being those genders does not make you non-duish. It may change what ritual requirements you have, depending on whether you fulfill wrong male gendered rituals or more female ones, whether you should or can get married, you know, that sort of thing. But it doesn't stop you from being a Jew, and it doesn't stop you from being a good Jew. And I think that's an important thing that is missing in a world where people are still clinging so desperately to a gender binary. Sure. And somebody who was converting at the same time they were transitioning, they had to get a little creative with the circumcision part, but they told me absolutely welcoming to everything. Yep. Yeah. We were honored by a young friend of ours and her family at our synagogue for her renaming ceremony as she claimed her new name and gender identity at the synagogue. And I love that that it's a renaming ceremony. I heard of a Jew of parents who sent out a tender reveal notice, for the child. I think that's a way to come out for the family. But having a whole-- It's like a man, why? A man, why? We had discovered that gender. I thought that was cute. That does sound cute. Well, I was going to say that the new reveal, I'm sorry, not the gender reveal, but the renaming ceremony, the renaming ceremony. That just sounds absolutely like, hey, we've embraced you as still part of the community and our part of the community and here we're uplifting and holding you to where you are. And all of that. Yeah, there are rituals for going to the blessings, for going to the ritual bath on transition so that you enter the bath and when you come out, you say a blessing, and the blessing would be the typical gendered one that some Jews say every day. And I thank the universe, I thank the creative power, I thank God, for making me my gender. And I love that too. Gotcha. Definitely. I should have gone to the mikro when I realized I was in menopause, but my brain wasn't working. Menopause, it does strange things. But, if there is a God, I have a list of things. A list of things. About female bodies. No. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. I'll take your guys' word for it. I'll take your guys' word for it. They pitch me like unrolling the scroll. I have a list. All right, so this is the part of the show we like to call inside the KINGSTOR studio. This is where we get a little bit off topic and get to know you a little bit better, have a little fun. Are you game? Okay, hit me. Street. What is your favorite toy in your toy bag? But... It's not in my toy bag. My favorite toy is Google. Okay. Because I can use it to search for things that turn me on. Oh, fair. Yeah, it's my favorite tool, my favorite toy. But if we were talking about something to collect, uh, that vibrator. The... You'll need no vibrator. Oh, worth every penny. I've heard that. It's just so nice compared to other vibrators. I mean, some women swear by their Hattachi magic wands. For me, it's like, you know, riding a Harley. It's fun for a little while and then it's a bit much. Give me a nice shadow. Definitely can understand that. What is your biggest failure in KINGSTOR? And what did you learn from it? Errrr. Wow, that's a tough one. I would say my biggest failure in KINGSTOR was to not live up to my expectations for myself as a dominant in a particular relationship. I was disappointing at best and cruel at worst. And I regretted deeply. I wish I could say it was because I was young and stupid. But no, I was a grown-up and I was just thoughtless and selfish. So, did you learn and grow from it then? Yes, the one thing. I learned that a first-time relationship was not going to work for me ever. Of course, that was before I got my diagnosis of ADHD. Which explains a lot. Yeah. And it turns out that my focus for that sort of thing is best when it's limited. And so I wrote best in a really limited window. Tell me it's for this long. Tell me it's for this specific purpose. Let's arrange it so that there are boundaries. But an open-ended full-time canado. Ginger or Marianne? Oh, Marianne. Because she's like my wife. Okay. Fair. But I mean, okay. I have to admit, my wife is like Ginger also because she's a drag queen. Nice. Okay. Across the room. She's like true. But she's also a Midwestern girl. I have a thing from Midwestern girls. What the hell? Heaps of that Jewish, though. I think for her, it's just a little bit like you can say. My other long-time partner is also from the Midwest. She's living in Michigan now. In a town called Temperance, thank you very much. Like what the actual fuck? I suppose that's better than Hell, Michigan. Hell is real. It is. So it's climax. As the billboard reminds us. That's the grandpa's true barn. Yeah. And stop by the cheese barn. Yes. That's in Ohio. Yes. That shuts the best, man. Here is so much you can get there. I know. What is the most useless skill you possess? My God. I guess it depends on what you mean by useless. But I know an awful lot of real-the-well craft, man. I can... I wrote a nine-page essay on white-tiered letters to his a villain. What's the best? You're just with school, I have, Karen. Oh, yes. I am expert at shoveling clay. Okay. And where did you pick up that skill? I actually wrote shoveling coal at the gay community center here in New York City in the early 90s. Because the gay community center was a former sclerot, and sclerot in New York were heated by coal furnaces. Wow. Still in the 90s, yeah. And so, yep. Once a month, the coal truck would come and spill a big pile of it into the basement. And I would go down there with my gas mask and hard hat and still tell it boots. And fireproof groves, and I'd keep the furnaces filled. Nice. Yeah, my boss was in order to butcher steak. He taught me how to button up a dildo into the buttons of my Levi's 501s. That is fantastic. And that is an excellent skill to have. Oh, God. So he was fed. So he was fed because sometimes you know you just don't have a harness at hand. And so, you know, just good because it looks cool because you get to keep your Levi's on. So there you go. Shoveling coal. What is one thing you've done that you will never do again? Go camping. Very good. Fair. I've done it. I've done it more than once. I hate it. I went to a kinky camping thing, hit on the east coast, and they camped the first night. I was like, "Nit, nit, nit, nit." I do not live like this. I did camp, and I went across the highway through a la Quinta. Well, I had hot running water, air conditioning, Wi-Fi, clean sheets, no bugs, and privacy. Fair. That fair. And when I got up in the morning, I didn't have to walk through wet grass. You got carpeting to go to the shower? You know, it's the little things. They give me a reward for worst camper. Oh. All right. What's your favorite swear word? Fuck. Nice. I'm in New Yorker. We use fuck like a comma.[Laughter] That, my favorite archaic swear word is "Wim." Okay. I don't know that word. It means pussy. Oh! I just, I just love it."Wim." I think it's a great word. It took me a second, because I'm like, wait a second, I know that word. Oh, it's been in some of my, I call them slut novels, because like, I love them, but you know. Yeah. It's in those romantic, historical, whatever, slut novels. Yeah. I think I might have first encountered it in Victorian porn. Yeah. Starting tomorrow, your nipples are going to taste like Doritos. Do you want it classic nacho cheese or ranch? Well, yeah.[Laughter] Oh. Can I get that fixed? Oh, nacho cheese, I guess. Okay. You can't pinch me. Not a fan of Doritos? Hey, I'm a fan of my nipples.[Laughter] I just thought that there should be intentionally santae.[Laughter] That's fair. And if they go with his blin pressure, I want them to raise my blin pressure.[Laughter] Toilet paper roll over her under. Under her. Under is a sin.[Laughter] I'm sure, I'm sure that one of us is telling us those same minutes of it. It's the eleventh command, man. Right? Anyone who does it otherwise is just sick and wrong. But putting ketchup on hot dogs.[Laughter] Man is on pastrami. Like, what is wrong with people?[Laughter] You have some strong opinions from A.[Laughter] Controversial ones. All right, last question is my favorite question to ask our guests. If you had to, which muppet would you have sex with and why? Oh, I'm going to assume Miss Piggy is out because she's not kosher.[Laughter] Miss Piggy is out because she's a doomy queen.[Laughter] I mean, I guess I feel like I'm moving for that, but you know, oh, I'd have sex with Gonzo. Nice.[Laughter] Yeah, he's really, he likes chickens. I think we could find some commonality there.[Laughter] Very fair.[Laughter] I mean, it's, I move that. Well, for six act, I'm joining statler and rag-or-to-insert people from afar. Yes![Laughter] Oh, yes! Why? Because that would turn me on like nothing. They're into dagric days. Exactly. Exactly.[Laughter] I only laugh, I'm sharp. Oh, yeah, I'm not sharp. It's an act we would get around so well. So if somebody wants to contact you, what's the best way to do that? Right now, through Facebook, or Facebook Messenger, so we dig a little bit easy to find because they used my last name. And as long as you spell it correctly with the IOU at the end, you will find me. There may be, maybe four or five other lyrids in the United States, I'm sure they're really upset with me.[Laughter] Well, I make it even easier by putting a link in the show notes for you. Thank you. But thank you very much for coming on the show. Please come back in the future. Thank you. And I'm too. Anytime. Anytime. Podcasts are my favorite. You've been a great guest. Thank you for educating us about the Jewish outlook on King Can Sex. Yes, thank you very much. For our listeners. Thank you too for being such great hosts. Thank you. For our listeners, upcoming synagogue classes on Braddie Daddy, Electro Play, Chainsifting, and Pony Play 201 are coming up both virtually in person. Check out the website for details on that. Also check out our store. New item in there this week. It's a Duffle Bag with the node on top that says "Dear TSA agents, yes, this bag has sex toys in it." No, they haven't been washed recently. It'll keep TSA out of your bag. But that is... Maybe next time you could ask me about my adventures with airport security. Oh boy. That could be fine. All right, well that's it. That's our show. Say goodnight a little bit. Goodnight, little bit.