Ep22 - "Owning Your Kink: Living with Authenticity in a Vanilla World" with Hardy Haberman

Ep22 - "Owning Your Kink: Living with Authenticity in a Vanilla World" with Hardy Haberman

Should you keep your kink in the closet? Should you come out? To who, when, and what are the benefits? More importantly, what are the hazards? Exploring these questions leads to living authentically. Authenticity does not mean parading your kink down Main Street, but it does mean thoughtful self-examination and coming to terms with it. This discussion will help kinky folk decide how to negotiate their path in a vanilla world.

Hardy Haberman is a long-time LGBT activist and member of the leather community since the mid-70’s. The author of several books including The Family Jewels: A Guide to Male Genital Play and Torment.

He has received numerous awards, including the “Leather Leadership Award” from the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, the “Jack Stice Memorial Award” at South Planes LeatherFest, and the Marcus Hernandez Lifetime Achievement Award at Pantheon of Leather. 

Hardy is a columnist for the Dallas Voice, Digital Experience Manager for Cathedral of Hope, and former Chairperson of the Woodhull Freedom Foundation. He lives in Dallas, where he and his boy celebrated 29 years together as partners in play and life.

• Fetlife.com/HardyH
• Facebook.com/hardy.Haberman

Welcome to the SINagogue. they call me the Rabbi. I put the SIN in SINagoguge.and am a cisgender, ambimorous, gynesexual, sadistic bratty daddy-dom. Sex therapist by day and a kink educator by night, I help people make their kink a religious experience. I am a mental health professional, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is not a replacement for therapy. Seek out the assistance of a trained professional for help with your situation.  

Reminder, we try to make our content as inclusive as possible regardless of gender, orientation, role in the lifestyle, etc., but we do inherently speak from our own point of view. We want to learn from our mistakes. If you feel like we said something offensive, let us know. Reach out via our website or call us at 469-269-0403.

Today’s show was brought to you in part by the letters S and M, and the Number 69. 

*San Dimas High School Football Rules*

Chapters

• 1:30 Introductions
• 9:34 We're Just All Weird
• 15:52 My Parents Were Probably Kinky
• 22:53 If We Went Into Hiding, Then Linda McMahon Wins by Count Out
• 31:04 Pull Along Tool Chest
• 44:35 It's Not A Contest
• 50:26 The Council Of Elders
• 58:07 Inside The Kinkster's Studio

Transcript

1:14

Hosting with me today is my partner, my ADHD squirrel wrangler, my submissive, my brat, my little, my pony, or just my little pony. The abit to my Castello, little bit. This is episode number two. And with us today is Hardy Haberent to talk to us about owning your kink, living with authenticity in a vanilla world.[BLANK_AUDIO] But first a word from our sponsors.[MUSIC][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO][BLANK_AUDIO] not much. Okay, I'll tell you why. I've been an activist since the 70s, and various levels, everything from political activism to, you know, direct action marching the streets kind of stuff. I don't. I think if we went into hiding, they wind. And I say they have any, I mean, you know, whoever this is, the oppressor. Sure. Yeah. I'm not even really sure who's who's in charge of the government looking at the latest cabinet picks. It's, it's like a joke. You know, Vince McMahon's wife as the head of the education department. Yeah, fuck is that about? Yeah. So why it is Linda McMahon? Why is she education? Yeah. And, then Dr Oz, it's going to be in charge of Medicare and Medicaid. Yeah. Dr. Friggin Oz, a TV, you know, we've just stepped into a reality show. But so while this comedy plays out, I'm not going to change my life. That's what they want. And I'm not going to do it. I, you know, I may change my tune. If they start putting people away, you know, there's always the option of moving. Sure. But I don't want to, I mean, I help to build this country and I don't think I'm going to give it up just because the oligarchs out control right now, I think that's going to be temporary. Here I go. Who knows? It also sounds as if, you know, to, to be authentic and even it isn't necessarily, I don't want to say like digging in your heels, but at the same time, it's also digging in your heels, but standing firm as to know I'm here. This is me. I'm still exploring who I am. And I'm not going to let certain powers that be totally and completely dictate that I need to stay in hiding when this is who I am. All of it. Forget her for bad. It has a change as I move, as I grow, all of that stuff. Granted, I understand, you know, some of those tunes may change just a little bit depending on, depending on if scary things happen. I'll put it that way. Yeah. Well, and the truth is not everybody could get out. Right. We can't all just leave. Sure. First of all, we all just leave. We just let, we can let them have it. That's, that's, I don't, that didn't work for me. That, that runs against my, my instincts. My instincts are, you know, I put a lot of work in this country. I put a lot of work in my life. And I think I deserve to be here. And if they are going to try to take it away from me, then I'm going to fight. And I'll do it in every means necessary. That's legal. That's where I have to be. At first, my first impression was we need to get to the gig and soon as soon as the trip as fast as we can. But there's, there's going to be a rush on that. So I started getting ads for that in my Facebook feed the day after the election. They make great to Canada. Here's an easy way. Blah blah blah. Really? Yeah. Oh yeah. It's difficult to immigrate to Canada, by the way. So I've heard. And, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'll be 75 next year. So I really am probably a little old for having a sellable skill up there unless somebody just needs, so you took that, that, should I do that?(laughs)>> I made a promoting away of life.(laughs)>> I mean, I'm in a couple of, I will call them, brainbow support groups for parents of, kids who are LGBTQIA, then all of that, and one of the things that even prior to, the current political standings, prior to it, there's more so now, there's, you know, parents who are like, we're, we're straight, but our kids are not, and we're trying to find safe places for everybody to be able to grow and explore and to be safe just in the less, you know, that type of thing. Sorry, I know, kinky, but at the same time, like, you know, this how we're chatting is, you know, falling under lots and lots around, sorry, it didn't mean to.>> No, you're fine.(laughs)>> I mean, like my Facebook banner says, right now, first, the came for the transgender community, and I spoke out immediately even though I'm straight and cis because I've read the rest of that fucking poem.>> You, I like that.>> Yes, exactly.>> I mean, I'm fortunate that I have a career where if somebody outed me as kinky, it would probably help my career as a sex therapist, to who deals mainly with the kinkin, trans, and poly communities, I would not be hurt by that, but I will say, you know, in the past few weeks since the election, you know, the simple act of having a pronoun pin on my therapist, Cardigan, was just a simple act of support. Now it feels like an open act of the finance.>> Good. (laughs) I hear that.>> And, you know, I'm not taking it off, but it was something, you know, it was on my therapist, Cardigan, then I didn't really think about it. And now, you know, every time I see it or hear it right on, like, yeah, fuck him, but all that.>> Again, this is about being authentic, great.>> Yeah.>> And that's hiding, going back in the closet, that for person for yourself, it may make you temporarily feel safer, but it won't. It'll make you feel less more vulnerable because you'll have to be putting up a front and lying. The only reason that back in the '60s, that gay people were thought as security risks, is because people could out them.>> Right.>> Well, you're already out. I'm not a security risk. What are you gonna do? Tell them out, I already am. You know, somebody tell me, somebody I'm kinky? Good luck. That boat sail. You know, you can Google me and you'll find out. I'm about as kinky as it gets, so.(laughs)>> Yeah.>> Secrets have power, and if that's not a secret, right. I'm gonna blackmail you and tell everybody you're kinky. Okay, I'll do it for free.>> Yeah, I think that's part of it. It's, you know, you gotta get comfortable being vulnerable. And that's part of it. I think you're gonna be, if you're gonna be authentic, you gotta ditch those things that made you comfortable living in an authentic life to begin with. You know, you gotta shift your priorities and learn to trust your own intuition too, which is something I fight with on a regular basis. But it turns out my intuition is usually pretty good. You know, first impression, sometimes you're misleading, but maybe not.(laughs) But somebody says, if somebody tells you who they are, believe them, I think that's probably a good thing. I think the other thing, you're trying to live authentic. You need to focus on connections and not possessions. And for me, that's tough, because I collect shit. You know, I always try to get stuff,'cause you get a lot of stuff, then you're gonna be shielded from everything else. Or if I've got the world's biggest collection of floggers, therefore I must be great at BDSM. And I have a huge, ridiculous collection of floggers, and I use two of them. So.(laughs)>> So you're, you're great at collecting floggers as what you're telling me?(laughs)>> I'm not gonna have any more.>> A fair.(laughs)>> That shit's not gonna have any more. I used to have a toy chest that when I'd go to parties, it was one of these pull-on tool chests.>> As she's staring at mine right next to the couch, that is a pull-on tool chest.>> And when you go to a party, what do you end up playing with? One or two things. Why not just take those one or two things that you wanna play with that night with you? And that's it. And that's what I've decided to do. It simplifies, it makes it easier. You know, instead of coming with all my electrical play stuff, you know, my bindage stuff and my CBT stuff, well, if I wanna do electrical, I'll bring the electrical. Oh, I don't feel like doing electrical. I won't do it, you know?>> The only reason I'll disagree with that is because, hey, I have ADHD and I will play with every single thing and they are even if it's only two hits.>> Huh, but.>> I have completely different bags for electric and fire, and I will pick which bags we're bringing.>> Well, good. At least you married it down to that, you know?>> Yeah.>> My house is filled with clutter. Both my boy and I are both backgrounds and borderline borders. I envy the, you know, when I go into other people's houses and they have surfaces.>> [LAUGH]>> They have places to put things. What is that about? You know, so that's my goal is to become the next Marie Kondo. And, you know, have surfaces and everything neat and tidy.>> But if it brings you through life.>> That's not what ever happened.>> But in learning different aspects of, you know, living your authentic self and your authentic life, what have you found that has best served you in order to continue to do that, like always, even in like the hard spots or things like that?>> One of the biggest things that helped me, and this is part of my story, so I'll open this up to. I'm a recovering addict. And when I got into recovery, this has been since 1986. So, you know, I was doing a 12-step program, and that helped me a great deal. But one of the things they emphasize is principles before a person hellends.>> Uh-huh.>> And so, I try to remember that. And it keeps me balanced, you know. It's easy to get caught up in one of the things I have to go with is my ego. It goes both ways. Sometimes I think I'm all that in a bag of chips. And other times I have embossed her syndrome. So, it flips back and forth. But I try to keep that both of those in check. And I think humility is part of it. I try to be humble. I try to not come off as, you know, the uber top of the world. I think that speaks more about a person when they have humility than when they're filled with bragadocia. Current president elect as a case in point. He's got a lot of bragadocia, but they're eating nothing under the surface. That's important. And I think the other thing that has helped me live authentically is my spirituality. I'm not looking for my higher power to do something that I'm not willing to do myself. But it helps to be able to let some things go and say, "That's something I can't control. What can I control?" And look at the stuff that I can. That serenity prayer really works for me, especially today. You know, it's one of those things that are things you cannot change. And I'm not sure who wrote the serenity prayer. I want to say I was Dietrich Bonhoff, but I maybe wrote. But it's a brilliant little piece of slogan-based spiritual. I don't like living life in bumper stickers, but that works. So I mean, there's a reason why clichés become clichés because they work. And then you overuse them and then they become the cliché.- Yeah. I try to embrace my imperfections. Because if I try to be perfect, it'll never happen. I can't tweak everything about my life. Life is messy, it's complex. And that's part of the joy of this, the seed is, it's messy and complex. I mean, relationships are messy and complex. Even though we in a lot of kink scene, a lot of kink relationships seem to be very simple on the surface, you know, you're the slave on the master. Yeah. Let's talk. Let's talk reality.(laughs) There's a lot that goes into that. It's not simple. And that may be what attracts people to it, because it seems very simple. But when you get into it, that simplicity goes out the window and you realize, this is just as messy and difficult as any kind of relationship. It's a relationship. That's all it is. Just another kind of relationship. You'd maybe be basing in structuring in a different model, but it's still a relationship, and relationships take more. Just like life takes more. And I was at a, I'm gonna dig into religion here for a minute.- Okay.- Don't get put off. I was at a Catholic funeral this weekend, and I was interested because, let's say to the number of prayers, it would save us, save us, save us, save us, save us. And I'm thinking, it's like they wanna get out of jail free card, you know? And that's not my version of Christianity is Jesus said that a whole bunch of work for us is to do, and we can either do the work or not. But if we wanna create heaven on earth, we gotta do the work. There's no, there's no get out of jail free card. And that's okay. I think that's fine. I'm not looking for a savior. I'm looking for a guidance. That's what I look to my religion for is, there's some guidance, and I like it only assurance. And the assurance is that, here's this, it's laid out for me pretty, pretty clearly, in different, many, many books, not just the Bible or the Talmud or whatever, there are a lot of books that lay this stuff out, and they pretty much all say the same thing. Although the Talmud is, I don't know if you've read Talmud or do much of that,'cause he probably do, it comes out. 40 chapters discussing what constitutes work on the Sabbath. That may be a little bit too nitpicky for me, but personally. The basis of how to live a good life and how to make the world a better place, it's all there. And you can look at the Quran, you can look at the, in my Brigida, you can look at all the sacred books, they're all basically saying the same thing. That's how we interpret it. And so that's what I try to do. I try to live, try to live a good life. I try to embrace man perfections. I try to be the best person that I can, and try to make other people's lives something better. That's part of the authenticity for me.'Cause I think the more out we are, the easier it is for other people to be out. They say you model this for other people. You know, and I was growing up, there was no book that showed how to be gay. There was no nothing in the media or anything that was, it didn't show any glimpse as to what being gay meant. So we had to make it up as we were, I made it up as we were in the long, and I learned from other people. There's a whole generation now that has some great stuff, wonderful resources, but in the King community, when I first got in the King community, we were making it up as we were in the long. You know, I got into the leather in the '70s, and there were only a couple of books, and neither of them was really a how-to. The leatherman's handbook was not a handbook, as in how-to handbook, it was a handbook, it's in like, you know, stroking handbook. You know? (laughing) I mean, seriously, yeah. The other town's and said that. He said it was never meant to be a guide. It was meant to be hot stories. Now, there's some, there's truth in there, but you know, like in any story, there's truth. So that's the way I learned. I made it up as I went alone. I learned from other people, and I think that's our responsibility is to teach the next generation, and not teach them necessarily by, you know, it's a didactic, you have to do this or this or this, but teach them by the way we live. People will be attracted to the way you live, rather than what you tell them to do. They will be attracted to your story, and I believe deeply in the power of stories and storytelling, they're sticky, you know, they stick with you.- Yeah.- I can learn more from a story. Somebody tells me a story about what happened, and I've seen, I learned as much from that, as I could from any book. You know, there's a reason, Aesop told fables. There's a reason Jesus told stories. They stick parable of reason behind them. They're not just these mysteries, mysterious things, they're there for a reason. And that's the way I believe in going for it. I got off on the real deep end there, didn't I, sir?- Oh no, you're fine. I'm like my thought on a couple of different things was, you know, I always sat there and remember the folks that it's just growing up since I grew up Catholic was, all right, we're gonna party hard Saturday night and do all the things and be as slutty as what you want. And then Sunday is, oh no, you need to get your ass up and go to church, and you need to go sit in the pew and pray for forgiveness for all that you did on Saturday because, you know, oh my gosh. And, you know, here, let a candle and pay your 50 cents for the candle that you just lit. And, well, you should be good.- Well, but that's not how that's supposed to work, but okay.- Yeah, yeah.- You know, and, you know, just thinking of all of that going, but are you truly being authentic with yourself if you are essentially living your best life on Saturday? And then, at the start of midnight, sometimes literally not just figuratively.(laughs)- Yeah.- You know, you have to turn into a pumpkin and oh my gosh, now I gotta be like this hide who I am, tuck it all away, show up to try to be as pure as the dirty snow on Sunday. And, hopes that, you know, nobody's going to know that it really, my authentic self is more Saturday night than this Sunday morning. You know, that just, sometimes that just force me that, you know, people are like that. And it's-- - Yeah, I understand it.- Yeah.- You know, it's funny. We have a leather pier at our church.(laughs) And, kind of started it. I encourage people to come in their colors and their leather is when they wanted to. And, the reason being that you need to show up, you need to be there. You need to show people that there is diversity. And, when I was raised Jewish and the concept of Ticken, Ticken, holam is very near and dear to me. And, it's funny 'cause I think that's what Jesus was a Jew, right?- Right.- What was he teaching? He was teaching that. How can we repair the world?- Duck.- And so, it's a, it makes, it made an easy transition for me. But, I think that in our kink community, we can take that principle and apply it to our kink community the way we interact with people. We can fix a lot of things with our actions. And, by being authentic, I think is one of the easiest ways to start that. Because then that gives a story out there that people can see. The 12-step community, they'd say it's by attraction, not by action. You know, the people who are attracted to it'cause they see people, they see it working. And they go, I know what they have.- Sure.- So, I like to live the kind of life, like you said, you wanna leave your best life? I wanna live the kind of life that people go, I want what he has.- Yeah.- So, I think that's, I think that's really important. And, you know, we have people come into the scene and they come in as sexual tourists at first sort of and they might find something that makes them stick. And when they stick, then they have to, then they have to just make the decision as to how, how deep do I wanna get into this? And you don't, it's not a contest. And that's the unfortunate thing. I think a lot of people look at Kink as a contest. And that is a, that is a straight male thing.(laughs) Everything is a contest. It's a cisgender, straight male, toxic masculinity. It's all gonna know that, it'll be alpha, you know? Whatever, I wanna be the top dog on everything. You can't and you're not gonna be. And it doesn't matter. You don't have to know everything. You do what you do and you're good at it and you have fun with it, then you win, right? You know, if there's a winner or loser, you win by just being, living a good life. And that's the way I look at Kink, you know? As long as I can, as long as I have fun, then I don't hurt people in ways that they don't wanna be hurt.(laughs) And I think that's the important thing.- Just gonna say that, that just reminds me of conversations that I've had with a really good friend who is like, who he is just said, he's had conversation of fucking styling with himself on, what was it? Living his authentic life and being a leather man. And of also saying, yeah, I try to be a good activist. So I try to be, you know, for him a good Christian. And he's like, I don't put any of that aside. He's like, it took me years and years to actually figure that out. And somebody tried to come up and say something like, no, you just wear it on, you know, you just wear your leather just because it makes you look good. And he's like, no, actually, you're weird because, it's a part of me, it's a part of my identity. It's a part of who I am. And he's like, I've embraced that. And I can wear it on Sunday and I can wear it to dinner and I can wear it when I'm having to be a parent to my adult children and I can wear it to the bar and I can wear it when I'm cruising and it's just me. And he said he recognized that once he embraced all of that to be his authentic self, some of the depression and anxiety who was experiencing had went away. And that was a big--- Funny how that works in it.- I'm like, you know, that's a very telling thing that, you know, hey, when you do that, you accept the parts of yourself and he's like, I'm more at peace.- Wow. You know, is that, I guess that's one of those, is that one of those hard concepts to embrace?- It shouldn't be.(laughs) You know, it shouldn't be, but sometimes it takes a long time to get around to that. You know, you gotta bump your head into a lot of things and try different different things and find out, oh, the easiest way is to just simply be and not try to, you know, create anything fake just be who I am. And you first have to know who you are, that that takes some introspection and self-reflection but know that you're gonna change.- Mm-hmm.- You know, who I was 40 years ago, I'm not today. That's for sure.(laughs) I can't fit any of those clothes.(laughs) You know, we have to be willing to change. I tell people, there's not leather. They always wanna, I get people all the time say, well, you were old guard. You need to tell me all about how the old guard did it. What do I need to do to be old guard? It's like, first of all, the term old guard, I first heard it as a put down. It was like, oh, shit, they're just old guard. Don't worry about that. You know, it was not used as something reverendial. It was like, eh, those are the old guys that are old guard. And quite frankly, there was no old guard, monolithic tradition. Everybody had their own little pinks to it, their own twist.- Right.- And there were some general things, but there was no, you know, there was no book that sells how to be old guard, even though there are a couple of books that claim to be, God forbid. And I think that's, to try and fit yourself into that mold, does yourself a disservice. I mean, leather, I tell you, is leather is organic. It came off a living animal and it evolved. And if we don't continue to evolve in leather, it's gonna die. It's just gonna be a some dusty, you know, civil war reenactment. You know, we're not gonna be, but it's gonna be, you know, try to do some, do some kind of renfare reenactment. It's not, it's not gonna be real. We have to make it our own. And that means whatever generation you're in, find what works for you, create rituals or whatever is fine, but don't try to add on yourself completely on, on somebody else's cake. Take what you'd like and leave the rest, you know, it's, it doesn't have to be that way. That's a, it's difficult and that's good. It shouldn't be easy because if it's easy, you don't appreciate it. And I think that's important. When I got into the leather scene, and I, it took me weeks of hanging around the leather bar before I got the nerve to talk to anybody. It took me a week or so of going and sitting in the parking lot before he got the nerve to go in. But, but once I finally talked to people, I realized there was not that much to be afraid of. And you know, it took a while to get to know people and to get into it, but I think that's good because it made it valuable to me.- Why not?- If it was too easy to get, it wouldn't be worth it. You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put the same value on it. And that's, that's, that's important.- Is this right accounts of elders came in?(laughing)- Oh Lord, the Council of elders. Okay, so there's a book called "Ollguard Traditions of Protocol." And it's, well Guy Baldwin did a wonderful review on it, if you could find it.- Okay.- 'Cause he basically said the whole thing's bullshit.(laughing)- Close. There wasn't, you know, they, in the book, the guy proposed, and I know this guy, I'm not gonna mention his name, but, sure, I know him. And in his book he claims that he was living in San Francisco and there was a council of elders who decided who got covered. First of all, the word covering, I never heard it until the 90s. So, you know, it was a recent thing. Covering is more of a military thing. And it really wouldn't use that much. You know, he had a cap. The idea that there's a council that puts this, to me, is gonna decide all things leather, it's ludicrous. You can't get three gay men to decide on where to go to brunch.(laughing) Much less, decide on all things leather. It's just not gonna happen. And it's a bad idea, you know, because then you stagnate and it falls apart. So, the council of elders was a joke. And it is a joke.- Mm-hmm.- It wasn't in that book of "Fritan's Though" is real. But I decided that I was just gonna have fun with it. So, I created these pins in this logo that basically looked like a chalice, but if you look at it close, it's two men's faces. Two leather men facing each other. And the motto is, "Brotherhood and Solidarity." If you look at "Brother and Solidarity" at first two letters in B and S.(laughing)- B and S. - B is. If you see those pins out, I've given them out to a lot of people.- And.- When you get the pin, you're told, you can't tell anybody what it means. And if they ask you what it is, go, "What pin?"(laughing) And I have found, I amazingly, in a contest, we were judging, some guy had a council of elders pin on his vest, and I didn't give it to him. And so, one of the judges said,"Oh, council of elders, what's that?" And he went on a whole big story about how it was this, and this, and this.- Oh geez.- Like obviously he found that pin, when he bought a vest that had it on it, or he stole it from somebody. And we were all, all the judges knew this, we were looking at each other like, just let him keep digging his grave, you know?(laughing)- So he didn't win.- No, he didn't win.(laughing) I will tell you that the publisher of that book, published a couple of my books, and he came to me at one time when I was doing my, he said, "You know, if we wrote a book on "Old Guard Protocol", the straight people had buy it like crazy. It was cynical, and I said, "I'm not gonna do that,"because first of all, there is no, it's stupid, why?" And he found somebody to write it, you know?- Oh my gosh.- And I know people that believe it, and it's like, "Oh yeah."- It's pity.- Join some Facebook groups there, all sorts of people in the gardens.- Same thing on FetLife, there's a whole string on FetLife about it, how to be "Old Guard". Like I think that's been, it's kind of gone away, I hope. But.- Yeah.- Let me ask this, for somebody who is wanting to be more authentic and come out of the King Key closet, what kind of things do they need to consider before they do so?- Who you need to be out to?- That's, you know, you need to consider how it's gonna affect you. It could affect your life in a lot of ways. I mean, if you're a teacher in a grade school, probably coming out as King Key is a bad idea, at least to the school board, you know?- Sure.- Because they're gonna be people that are gonna be upset that there's somebody King Key is teaching their kids. They don't seem to be upset that, you know, a priest that no less children are teaching their kids, but you know, hey.- We want you to discipline our kids. We don't want you to be into discipline now.- Right, exactly. And I think that you have to consider, you need to consider the audience, you know? And consider what it means to you. You gotta make a list and figure out pluses and minuses. And it may be that in some cases, it's fine, we can believe you out. In other cases, it's not. I'm lucky in that I never had, I've never in the closet much, so I didn't have to worry about it. But I mean, there are people in relationships that where I see this used worse is in divorces. I don't know who's King Key gets a divorce and their kids involved. One of the two will say, "Oh, he did all these terrible"King Key things to me."He doesn't need the kids, I need the kids,"you know, if they hit it, it's a bad divorce." And then they use their King Key against one another.- Yeah.- I've been asked to testify as an expert witness in some of those things. And it's ugly. Had they been out everybody before, they probably wouldn't have been that big a deal.'Cause everyone would go, "No, no, no, they're in the,"it's gonna be an individual basis." And you're gonna have to weigh what it means, you know, where, what is, how it's gonna affect me? And that's the tough thing. There's no one answer. So I'm sorry, I didn't give you the simple answer.- No, I wasn't expecting a simple answer. I just want our listeners to think about as many things as possible. Of course, I wanna encourage everybody to be out and be King Key and be their authentic selves, but I understand you can't do that everywhere. King Key is not a protected class who absolutely can lose your job for being King Key no matter what field you work in. And yeah, it's not a protected class, but neither are a lot of classes. So you just have to, you just have to, you know, consider the audience and weigh what you're doing. And you may need, not need to. Some people do, some people don't, it just depends. People have recurring patterns and behaviors that hold them back when you're living off physical. And those, that's what you could do. You could change that. You could look at the aspects of your life that feel out of alignment. You know, it doesn't mean necessarily that you have to be out to everybody, but that's gonna help you. And trying to live a life that reflects your true values and your passions, that's what everybody wants to be like. So philosophically, it's what all the philosophers say is how to live a good life. Well, the good life is this. Well, there is no one answer, and otherwise there would not still be philosophers. But sure, this is sure. This is early too. Well, we've gotten a lot of good information on being your authentic self. Is there anything else you would like to share with us on this topic before we move into the part of the show? We like to call inside the King's Dirt Studio. I think I probably, probably pontificated on this as much as I can. Okay, fair enough. So now we come to the part of the show. We like to call the inside the King's Dirt Studio. This is the part of the show where we get to know you a little better in our own unique irreverent and slightly bratty way. Are you gay? Sure. Okay.(laughing) Careful what you ask. You might get the answer. We might help out. What's your favorite toy in your toy bag? Gosh, my favorite toy. It changes from time to time, but my go-to toy is my, I've got a couple of heartwood floggers that Jeanette made for me. And I absolutely love them and I've used them for about 35 years and they're still, they still serve me very, very well. That's awesome. Very nice. What is your favorite smell?(laughing) My favorite smell? Balls. I know that sounds weird, but. No. Fair bones that pair of sweaty balls give off just does it for me. And something interesting I've discovered, I play with a lot of transmitters. And they're private parts. Smell like sweaty balls. They do not smell like typical female, a fair amount of odor. They smell like men. That was one of those things that was really a surprise and I was delighted by. Apparently, obviously the chemistry of the testosterone in the body, but.(laughing) What's something surprising you've learned about yourself in Kink?- Sure. I think surprising was how early I got into it. And this was only made aware by one of my aunts told me this story. When I was about three years old, my mom was hanging up clothes in the backyard'cause she liked the smell of cheats to try it outside. And I was playing with clothespins. And I was, you know, playing with like soldiers and stuff. And I began putting them on myself. And after a while I was laughing'cause, you know, the endorphins were going crazy, right? And my mom saw it. I heard this from my aunt because I didn't, I can't remember. She told me. She said, "Your mom saw it." She went, "Oh, honey, she pulled them all off and I screamed bloody murder from all those flesh." And then began laughing. So. (laughing) I think, you know, that maybe one of the things I discovered is that I think I'd been Kiki since I was born. So. Gotcha. Starting tomorrow, your nipples are going to taste like Doritos. Cool Ranch or Nacho cheese. Oh, Nacho cheese.(laughing) Cool Ranch Doritos is crying against nature. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, it's wrong. Oh.(laughing) What's something that you know now that you wish you knew at the beginning of things? Well, that I was going to live this long and I should take a better care of myself.(laughing) I think, something I don't know that I didn't know when I first, when I first got in the scene, or... Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's a heavy question. I don't know. She takes all the heavy depressing questions. There's so much, you know, I know there's so much. I think what I know now that I didn't know what I got in the scene is there's no one way to do it. You know, you have to forge your own path. Mm-hmm. Awesome. Who is your first ever celebrity crush? Oh, a Buster Crab. I don't know who that is. See, I'm really old. A Buster Crab was... He was a tarzan at one time, but he was also a thing. If you look up Buster Crab, he was a Olympic swimmer and MGM picked him up and made him into a character they call Casper the Lion boy. They were trying to go up against tarzan. But I used to watch him when I was a kid in a TV show called "Sargent Gallant of the French Foreign Legion." Mm-hmm. And he was this handsome guy in the French foreign season. And he had a young ward kid who was hung out with him or his son, I don't know what their relationship was, but I wanted to be that boy. And what's interesting is later in life, I used to do live shows for amusement parks and attractions. And we did a whole show production for one of the six flags parks. And since Buster Crab played Flash Gordon, he was still alive and I got him to do the voiceover part of the show. Oh. So I got to meet him in person. That's awesome. Which was awesome. The most amazing thing about him is he looked, he still looked good. He was 78 when he did that show for us. Six flags wanted him to wear one of their t-shirts and take a picture. We were in the studio recording this. And he said, "Sure." And he took off his shirt. He just put the shirt off and everyone went, "Ugh!" because he still had a six pack. He was still cut. And this guy is in his 70s and he looked great because he swam every day. But he was my first crush. And if you look him up on the internet, you can see why. Yeah, we both just did that. He also apparently won a gold medal for swimming in the 1932 Olympics. Yeah, he was a Olympics member. And a nice guy. That's awesome. All right. You've just done a really heavy, hot, sweaty, wonderful scene. Now it's time for a snack. What's your go-to sandwich? Sandwich? Yeah. After a scene? Usually it's not a sandwich. Usually it's some salty snack. Okay, fair. If somebody said, "Can I make you a sandwich?" I'd say, "Give me a locks and bagel." Because it's got the protein, it's got the cream cheese, and it's got, you know, capers and some onion, little bit of... Nice. That'll work. It's a perfect sandwich. How can you go over on that? See there. So my follow-up to that is, is a hot dog sandwich? Good question. If you say a hot dog is a sandwich, then what about a corny dog? It's got breading around it. That's sandwiched? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I think a hot dog is a sandwich. It's just a long skinny look. All right. What's the most useless skill you possess? The most useless skill I possess? Uh-huh. Wow. There's so many. One of them is, I can operate a 35 millimeter film camera. When's the last time you saw something shot on film? 15 years ago when I took my own pictures. No, I mean movie. Oh, that one. Movie camera. Oh, I'm so sorry. Movie camera. Oh, gosh. Yeah. No. No, no. I saw the film being played or when's the last time I saw the film. Oh, you do have the film. Because I do have a 35 millimeter film sitting on the top of my bookcase. It is actually moving memorabilia. Have you ever seen the movie "Soilent Green"? Yes. So you know how when they're outside like everything is kind of tented green? Yep. So the way they did that special effect is they shot it normally and then when they went to make prints they ran it against green tinted film. I own that green tinted film. Ha, ha, ha, ha. You got the optical printer? Yeah. That's it. Yeah. I was in that business for a while. I was in the film business. Awesome. And I love movie memory being it. In fact, I still have an air flex 16 millimeter camera. Oh, wow. I don't know what I'm going to do with one of these days. I'll probably saw it. Next question. What soap? Do you dislike the most and why? What soap? Yep. The guiding light. I don't know. I'm sorry. Nope. That one sucked. I'm with you. That one sucked. Yeah. There's a reason why it's off air now. I dislike Irish spring. It doesn't smell Irish at all. Not any of the Irish people in them. So I don't like it and it's it's it tries your skin out. What is the strangest purchase you've ever made? Wow. There's that again. There've been so many. Strangest purchase. I think probably we were getting ready to shoot this back when I was doing film stuff. We're getting ready to shoot an instructional film for how to have safe sex and we needed to have fake semen. So me and my prop person went to the store and we went through. We bought condensed milk and corn syrup and three boxes of condoms. That was the weirdest checkout ever. So now I'm acquiring mine's want to know does a does condensed milk and cornstarch or corn syrup and mix together. Actually, look like semen for film. Yes, it does. It looks it looks frighteningly like semen. In fact, they they they used to use something similar to that before they came up with all of you know, they know they all these loops look like semen. They used to use that in for money shots when you when the star was not performing you put that in a yours. Oh, that makes it makes make facials a lot more tasty depending on your preference. Well, I learned something new today. The more you know, shooting star. I kind of want to use use that for something you know just for science just because I can. We're going to load up some super sokers. Well, now there's actually there's actually there's a company called money shot that makes fake semen that's body safe. So you don't have to worry about you know, that's interactions and all that stuff. So yeah, that's but it's not as tasty. Now it would be the downside. Oh, good to know. So next question. If you could fight any historical figure, who would it be and why fight fights this fight? Oh, geez, I'm terrible. Oh, boy, this is tough. I think some historical figure that I really don't like, but that I figure I got a chance. There's so many that I don't like, but the chance of winning would probably do. Oh, go for the big one Hitler. Yeah. Okay, that works. Fair enough. Okay, time for the reverse uno card. You get to ask us one question, but the condition is you have to be the first one to ask the question nobody else can have asked this question previously. Oh, okay. Okay. So I'm going to ask your persona as rabbi. Okay. Is it okay to vlog someone on the seventh? I am thinking about this. So episode, what was it? Episode 15. We had Laura Antony on and the topic was kinky shminky Jewish perspectives on that thing we do. And I'm trying to think of what her answer was. Well, I mean, overall, the Jewish perspective on sex is it's a mitzvah. You should do things that make you and your partner happy. So I am going to say yes, it is. I'm also not supposed to work on the Sabbath. So no service topping on the Sabbath. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Hey, if I can't even press a button in an elevator in New York, then I think that'll work. I can consider that a mitzvah. I had never, I had never written on a Sabbath elevator until I was in New York several years ago and we were at a hotel off time squared. It was Saturday and we get, we get into get on go to our room and it stops on every floor. And what is going on in a, and I realized, oh, it's the Sabbath. No, no, no, because pushing a button would be considered work. Yeah, which is why the automatic light switch came about. You know, the motion sensor, you know, great Jewish invention. So you don't have to work on the Sabbath, but I don't have to walk around in the dark. Spare. All right, time for our final two favorite questions. What's your favorite swear word? Oh my god. What do I look like? What's my goat? I, it'll either be fuck or give up, which I default to you there sometimes, you know, understandable. So my final question and my favorite question to ask if you had to have sex with one Muppet, which Muppet would it be and why? Oh, it would be Dr. What's the name? The one with the band? Dr. Teeth. Dr. Teeth. Yes. Dr. Teeth. Cause he's wild and he would probably be a really, really crazy fuck. Okay. If somebody wants to contact you or follow you on social media, what's the best way to do that? You can just Google me and find me everywhere, but I'm on Facebook. I've got this already apartment, just my real name and I'm already H on on the fat life. And I'm on blue sky as hearty, hearty dot paperman and news guy. You look me up on blue sky. I'm on there too. Okay. And I will post links to those in the show notes. Thank you very much for coming on the show. You've been a great guest. You thank you. Educated us very much on how to live authentically in a vanilla world for our listeners upcoming synagogue and in person virtual classes. We have electric mayhem one and two for the doctor teeth fan. One is violent one. One is electric play without the violent one. Braddy daddies and body drumming all coming up. Check out our website for more details on each of those classes, but that's it. That's our show. Say good night, little bit. Good night, little bit.