Ep23 - "To Err is Human: Fuck Ups in the Kink World" with Doctor Bubbles and KitKat Ann

Ep23 - "To Err is Human: Fuck Ups in the Kink World" with Doctor Bubbles and KitKat Ann

The longer one practices kink, the greater the chance that they make a mistake. Mistakes are ok, as long as we learn from them! The best way to learn from our mistakes is to be open and honest about them, understand how they happened, and work to prevent them in the future. We will all share some of the fuck ups we have had in our kink journeys. This is to destigmatize failure as something to be afraid of and realize that failure is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

Doctor Bubbles and KitKat Ann met at Beyond Vanilla in '18 and found a kindred spirit in each other. Since then they have gone from playmates to best friends, eventually establishing a M/s dynamic and romantic partnership. Their dynamic is based on integrity, trust, respect, growth, balance, and improving the world around them. In '21, they were named the Texas Power Exchange titleholders and became named the '22 International Power Exchange titleholders. They view it as their duty as titleholders to promote positive and healthy power exchange. 

• Fetlife.com/DoctorBubbles 
• Fetlife.com/KitkatAnn 
• facebook.com/profile.php?id=100053507930989

Welcome to the SINagogue. they call me the Rabbi. I put the SIN in SINagoguge.and am a cisgender, ambimorous, gynesexual, sadistic bratty daddy-dom. Sex therapist by day and a kink educator by night, I help people make their kink a religious experience. I am a mental health professional, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is not a replacement for therapy. Seek out the assistance of a trained professional for help with your situation.  

Reminder, we try to make our content as inclusive as possible regardless of gender, orientation, role in the lifestyle, etc., but we do inherently speak from our own point of view. We want to learn from our mistakes. If you feel like we said something offensive, let us know. Reach out via our website or call us at 469-269-0403.

Today’s show was brought to you in part by the letters S and M, and the Number 69. 

*San Dimas High School Football Rules*

Chapters

• 1:32 Introductions
• 19:38 Two Choices
• 19:39 Mistake Page
• 30:25 Consent Violations Happen, That Doesn't Mean It's Abusive
• 40:39 Ellen Made Mistakes
• 47:56 The Blame Game
• 52:21 We Don't Hold Our Leaders Accountable
• 1:03:41 Dignification Play
• 1:04:50 Final Thoughts
• 1:06:12 Inside The Kinkster's Studio

Transcript

1:14

Hosting with me today is my partner, my ADHD squirrel wrangler, my submissive, my brat, my little, my pony, or just my little pony. Awwww. The J to my silent bob, little bit. This is episode number twenty three. And with us today is Dr. Bowles and Kit Kat Anne to talk to us about, to air is human, the funcups in the kink world. The longer one practices kink, the greater the chance that they make a mistake. Mistakes are okay as long as we learn from them. The best way to learn from our mistakes is to be open and honest about them, understand how they happened, and work to prevent those circumstances in the future. In this discussion, we will share some of the funcups we have had in our kink journeys. This is a way to destigmatize failure as something to be afraid of and realize that failure is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it. But first, a word from our sponsor. Dr. Bowles and Kit Kat Anne met at Beyond Vanilla in 2018 and found a kindred spirit in each other. Since then they have gone from playmates to best friends and eventually established a MS dynamic and romantic partnership. Their dynamic is based on integrity, trust, respect, growth, balance, and improving the world around them. In 2021, they were named Texas Power Exchange Titleholders and became named the 2022 International Power Exchange Title holders. As title holders, they view it as their duty to help promote positive and healthy Power Exchange Dynamics. Thank you for being here in the synagogue. Let's talk about two-era human fuckups in the kink world. Welcome. Yeah, it's good to be here. Thanks for having us on. Not a problem. We're really excited to talk about this topic because I've heard it called a lot of different things. I think we just found a really catchy title for it. I've heard of it as reformed of justice. I've heard of it as just understanding and accepting that we're all human and that we all make mistakes and how to repair things in our relationship. But we feel that it's not just within relationships that we make mistakes, but also within the kink community. And there's kind of a lack of understanding where to go when that happened. Calling this a class is really, really stretching the definition of classes. Usually when you go to a class and you go and sit and you learn something and ask questions and you come away with a better understanding of a topic from somebody who has been doing it for a while. This one we kind of wanted to just tell everybody else how we fucked up in our relationship and in our kink community and have other people have a safe space to do so as well. Because that's the big kind of underlying message with this is not only are we all human and humans are fallible, but because of the fact that we kind of give a stigma to the idea that we all have to be perfect at all times, it gives this idea of safety as an alluagee because we are dealing with very, very, I'm going to use the D word dangerous subjects when we get into BDSM, right? We're literally talking about people's physical, mental and emotional health and taking them into their hands. So our mistakes are going to be greater than the mistakes in the middle of the world just by the content they were dealing with. What's just dive right in, you've made a mistake now what? Okay, so can we give a story really quickly? Sure. So one of our favorite stories is you want to tell the story about the place situation or you want to tell the story about my collar? I think my collar is more perfect. Yeah, that was the same thing. Okay, so we always hear about the conventional where the top breaks the bottoms red and there's a fuck up and then people have to put a tone for that situation and move on and make amends and build trust from there. I don't feel like people talk enough about how complicated it can get. So one specific story in our relationship that happened was it's a point where I made mistakes and I didn't adhere to the bond that we agreed to when we agreed when we enter into a power exchange dynamic. So we agreed that I have a collar we take on and off on a daily basis. We put it on in the morning he tells me what he's grateful for for having me in his life and we take it off in the evening and he says something that or I say something I'm grateful for and it's this beautiful little ritual that we do every day, right? Sounds lovely. Yeah. Well, at one point I got into a habit of whenever we started an argument I would take my collar off. Now, to be fair, we're not talking about, you know, please do the dishes. Well, I don't want to do the dishes. This is really knockdown, drag out. I don't feel respected. Well, I don't feel respected kind of arguing. This is like level category three hurricane status here. And like any good relationship it starts with like you didn't find me the donuts I wanted. Well, that means that you don't listen. Well, fine, I'll go get the donuts that you want. But I don't want you to get the donuts that I want. I just want you to hear me, right? The back and forth that just comes more about more than the donuts. It is never about the donuts. It's not about the donuts. It's about the fact that apparently you decided not to listen to me and you're still not listening to me and you stormed out of this house, which is now triggered by abandonment issues. And I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. So if I don't want to be in this relationship more anymore, this collar is worthless. And that's not healthy. We talked about it over and over and over again. And it was something that I kept doing. And I said over and over again afterwards. We bagged, he cheated. When we would come back, he'd like, look, you taking off your collar and saying, I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. Also triggers mind issues. I don't react well with that. Do whatever you want, scream at me, sland or whatever, just promise me that the collar is sacred. We don't mess with the collar. And of course, once you know that something is a weakness in your partner when you're angry at them, you can't help but press that button, right? And so sure enough, I did so. Took my collar off and we were in the living room, put it on the coffee table and there's something called reactionary abuse, which is where you've pushed another person to the point where they don't feel like there's any other option except to act in kind with a similar abuse of behavior. And so he grabbed my collar and threw it at me. Unfortunately, this just so happened to hit me in the face, busted my lip and the worst part about it was my daughter saw it happen. And my daughter is 13 years old. And at some point you look at the relationship and you go, okay, is this really the relationship that I want? And by the way, just so y'all are aware, this is not recent. This happened a couple years ago. Our relationship is fine. But it's just something that we've learned from and we haven't, it helped me grow and it helped surgrow. And we recognize that that is not the relationship or the role models we want to be for our child or for each other. And we recognize that the people that you hurt most are the people who are closest to you. And unfortunately, sometimes to be able to grow, you hurt the people closest to you to learn that lesson. So we told you that story to tell you this story. So obviously that was a really stressful time in our relationship. Sure. So it was when we were on the rocks, but luckily we got to have that behind closed doors. We got to work out our differences and move forward and understand that this does not define us. But not everybody is that lucky. Sometimes stuff like that happens out in public with other people. And how often do we hear somebody in a relationship who does not keep that information private, right? And then goes around their community and says, oh, my partner is actually abusive. Instead of, instead, I had two options, right? I could take accountability for my responsibility and my role in those actions and recognize that I pushed him to a place of fear and hurt where he felt like he was back into a corner. And I'd pushed him to think that something was worthless. And if it's worthless, then fine, he's going to throw it back in my face. So when you get to the point, you really have, you know, two choices. You have a split in the road. And you can either say, we're going to never, ever, ever talk about this ever again. We're never going to bring this up to other people. Other people have to think that our relationship is good and solid and we never have any issues. And at the time, I believe that we were title holders. And as being a current title holder, you don't want to let other people, you want to be that...- Paragon of virtues, that beacon on the hill, that everyone can aspire to, right? Well, again, it goes back to we're human. The second path is to accept accountability and have honesty. And here's where those two paths take you. If you choose to hide it, that engender's fear, what if somebody finds out? And once you have fear that engender's shame, like everybody, if we ever slip up, somebody's going to find this out, and that will lead me to be seen by the community as a bad person, capital B, capital P. And so that engender's more lack of accountability, which leads to more fear, more shame, is a cyclical process. So we're saying that by taking the lead to the courage to be accountable for your mistakes and being honest to others like, "Yeah, I fucked up. It's not a good looking harmony. You can't be threatened by something you own." My mom used to call it, "Taking away the ugly stick." That's what you're doing is you're telling somebody before they can beat you with the ugly stick and call you a bad person, that you're taking away the ugly stick and you're owning it and going, "You know what? Yeah, you're right. I have this stick. It's mine. There are flaws with it. There are things that I did wrong, but I can learn from the mistakes I made and I can do better." And when you do that, it removes the ability for somebody to kind of waggle their finger or waggle the same stick and be like, "Shame, shame, shame." And that's what we're trying to help with is in this community, I recognize that we all have trauma. We all have places where we're scared of being found out for the bad things that we do. I just wish that people understood that by saying, "Hey, I've made mistakes, it makes it harder for predators to hide." And that's also a good point because the reason why not everybody is accountable is because our communities do have bad actors and do have predators that do exist. Sure. And if we have a metaphor of the Hunger Games that if everybody looked at each other and be like, "No, we're not going to fight," then there would be no Hunger Games. However, there is those bad actors that are like, "Okay, I'm going to get mine before anybody else can." And they are using those abusive behaviors and are unapologetic right back. So it makes it that much harder than that much. We need to have more bravery to be accountable in this kind of atmosphere because there really are predators out there. And, "Oh my God, what if I get mistaken for one?" But that was what we... Oh, no, one second. One second. Thank you. That was what we were doing for the roundtable was being... Everybody, "Look at your left, look at your right." We will not use the information that we gave here to judge anybody. So if you have a story about how you fucked up, we were ready to hear it and we were not going to judge it for you. Sure. So we recognize that's a lot to take in as far as a message goes. Any questions? I mean, it sounds like you're telling people to definitely own their own shit. Yes, it's not like a great way to send them out. Yeah. And it's one of those where it also sounds like, "Yes, I own my own shit. Yes, I do make mistakes." At the same token, it's if I admit that, "Yes, I've made a mistake and I own up to my own shit," then I can also potentially ask for the person that I've either wronged and/or the community to help me fix it if I bring it forth to the forefront of everything. My understanding this all correctly? This is so much to do. This is so much to do. Okay. Here's the thing that I would correct in your statement is that I can't ask the community to help me fix it. I have to take accountability for my own actions and the only person that can fix the situation is myself. There is actually a way that we say, "I'm sorry in our household." It starts with the fact that I recognize what I did wrong in this situation. So like when this is not how we worked it in our households, there were many more steps than I used to say, "I'm sorry for the car of my cause, my sir." But first small thing, the way that we say, "I'm sorry," is, "You know what, sir, I did use my collar in the way that was manipulative in our relationship and I recognized that it hurt you." And then you apologize to say, "I'm sorry." The words, "I'm sorry are really important in the English language." So using something like, "I apologize. It's my fault. I'm sorry are really important words to use." Then you say whether it was your intent or not because sometimes it is your intent. Yes, it was my intent to hurt you. I was so hurt in that situation that it was the only out I felt I had or no, it wasn't my intent to hurt you in that situation. I was trying to express my feelings in whatever way is appropriate and then you say what you're going to do better in the future. You're going to say before I take my collar off in that manner, I'm going to take a moment and I'm going to stop and think and I could use some help. If you have the words that we all understand, if you have the emotional spoons to do so, I would appreciate you reminding me to breathe. So that's how we apologize in our household. It's not everybody else's responsibility to force me to apologize, the only person who can accept that responsibility as myself. I'm going to take one step further. I've got some rather bad news for your listeners. The people that you wrong do not owe you forgiveness. Your community does not owe you forgiveness. We are not saying that if you own your shit, then your community will accept you with open arms. There is a very real chance that they will not. We are saying that this is something that you can do for you. I will also say on the other hand that I've heard several stories from a lot of people who have abused others. And yeah, it sucks for a good six months to a year, but it doesn't last forever. And that's kind of why we're trying to have this class be more accessible is because we want to say that we all make mistakes. We all fuck up. We all have to take accountability. And by doing so, it will help reduce the shame in our community. It's going to suck in the near future, but after doing so, you're going to help keep our community healthier, happier, and more stable in the long term. Even if you will, a world where instead of when you're vetting somebody and you're asking around, like, has this person ever done X, Y and Z and you get a negative back, no feedback, there's no information. Imagine instead of that, you get somebody that says, okay, yes, they did this and then this is how they handled it. So see, if I had my way, you know, on everybody's pet life page, how you have like pictures, activity, all different things, right? You'd have a fuck ups page. And on it, it would say all of the things that you'd done wrong and how you tried to like repair that relationship or what came of it, even if it was something that I had somebody who had a situation with a female they knew. And they'd recognize that it could have been a really, really sticky situation. The only difference was the female didn't get offended, right? And they realized they overstepped bounds and they apologized afterwards and the female was like, no, no, no, it's okay. You didn't actually bother me, but he saw that if he had overstepped bounds and she didn't say that, it could have been a really big deal. Those things are important to list and recognize. So it would be awesome if we all had a fuck ups page because I'd have a whole bunch of crap on there. Sure. And the people that didn't have one or didn't have anything on their fuck ups page, those are the people I would worry about. Does that make sense? Yeah, really cool. There's actually a really cool statistic. Everybody eventually fucks up. The longer that you're on the scene, the higher chance that you have a fuck up. When you first get in, you're so paranoid, you're so careful that the amount of incidents that you making a serious mistake is actually kind of low. But the more that you're in the scene, the more confidence you get, there's going to be a point where your confidence does not match your skill. And that's where mistakes happen. And we all as tops as bottoms, we all have those moments where mistakes happen. So the point isn't to deny messing up. The point is to learn how to deal with things when you mess up. And except that this is something that we all do. And we shouldn't be ashamed for messing out and try to hide it. Sure. I mean, I don't have a mistakes page, but because I'm not neurotypical, I have my negotiation defaults written out to 16 pages. But you can be damn sure every single mistake or thing that wasn't as perfect as I wanted it to be is in there somewhere somehow, so it doesn't happen again. I feel like every top has their own personal, like, there's a name behind the, you know, there's a name behind the rule, whatever it is. And so yeah, like there's normally a reason why you have all the things that you don't do or you're not going to do in the future. We just don't talk about it explicitly. And it's really important, especially for the newbies coming into our community, for us, and the people that have been here for a long, for a longer than a hot second, to say, hey, by the way, you're going to make mistakes. When I first started, it felt like there was a whole bunch of newbies and then a whole bunch of, like, experienced people who never made mistakes, always had great scenes, always were hot, knew how to communicate, knew the right words and were safe players. And I guarantee that they were probably some of them, they just fucked up before the internet, that kind of thing. Sure. There's a quote from Madori that I included in my scene negotiation class. Class practices were created by those who fucked up a lot. Yes. So there's a lot of-- I fucked up, so you don't have to. There's actually a joke that goes along with that. A CEO was being interviewed by Forbes magazine. The interviewer says, you're doing so great in the business, where all of you attribute to your success. And the CEO says, easy. Make good decisions. Okay. Well, how do you learn to make good decisions? All right. Well, and how does one get the necessary experience? Easy. Make bad decisions. So, yeah, we are all in here to learn. And if we weren't here to learn, then people wouldn't go to classes. And one of the other stories we tell-- I'd like to tell the-- how you wrote my read? Oh, yeah, that. I'd like to tell that story. Okay. One of my favorite things to say is that, so, Sir and I won a title in 2021. We became international title holders in 2022. We now teach along the coast, and we live very happy lives with our wonderful 13-year-old daughter. That sounds great, right? Well, Sir, actually, in 2019, before COVID, before we were even romantic partners, Sir broke my red. So, Sir, is technically a consent violate? Not even technically. Absolutely, a consent violate. Let me tell this story. So, we had been playing for a year. We met at Bian vanilla in 2018, we're separated by four-hour drive. So we only got to play once a quarter. In that year, she took romantic partners. So did I. However, the romantic partner really was not cool with me. And we had logged-- He said he was okay with Polly, he lied. We locked horns over almost everything. And we were coming up on the one-year anniversary of "When We First Played" and I wanted to make it a big thing. And I was-- I made the big mistake of like, okay, we are not going to talk about your partner at all. I want to clear headspace. And that was a mistake because he lived rent-free in my head for two weeks, heading up that seat. Oh, it was at least-- it was way more than two weeks, but okay. Yeah, yeah. So when the scene starts, I had like this big thing. I rented out a private dungeon. I was going to rent-- It was going to take like an hour and a half. There were seven different scenes. I was going to be locked up in a cage. There was going to be breath play. All of the fun things, right? So and the big thing was I was going to bring into the dungeon, hooded. It was going to be super, super fun. However, when I-- our play dynamic is kind of adversarial, she likes to fight back. And that one day-- I will play as a thing. In that one?--day when I brought her down and she was resisting and I took off that hood and I saw the deepest fuck you glare I'd ever seen. All I could think about was-- He asked for it. Yeah, all I could think about was I'm now not the person that she wants to play with. She's only doing this to be nice. And I took that person. Because we can't control what goes on in our own head sometimes, right? Right. Right. Sometimes when you push feelings and emotions down as far as possible, they come up in the worst ways at the wrong time. So two of her reds are one-- Two of her reds at the time was one, do not break the skin. Like, don't cause me any concern. OK, go. So one of them is fluid bonding. At the time, we weren't fluid bonded. We weren't fucking. And so I was like, OK, I just don't want to have to do STU testing. I don't want to have to do all the things. It costs money. I'm not interested. So that's off the table. The other thing is that I have-- I'm really hard to bruise, but I'm really easy to scar. So don't break my skin. Because if you break my skin, it's probably going to leave marks because it's just not going to heal well. The collagen in my body doesn't make-- it scar is easier than most. Sure. Which ordinary would not be an issue if you were vlogging, but I had just gone new meat cloth. You had used these on me before. No, that's right. They are the culinary clause that you use for making pull pork in this terrarium of side. And I really, really liked using that. We had drawn a tic-tacotote border on our chest one time. But at this time, because I was not in the greatest headspace, I was digging a little deeper than usual. Yeah. And so he put me up on a spider web. And he started-- he vlogged me first, gotten to a good rhythm, right? But that I could tell wasn't doing it. You know how you can tell when it doesn't say that it's-- it was not quite stating the itch that he had the moment. So he pulled out these claws that we've used before. And I'm like, that's perfectly fine, whatever. And he starts digging them into my sides and digging them into my back. And I start going, that's a little hard. I think that's a little deep. And he says he's going to back off, meat backs off for a second. And then he starts going deeper. And I'm like, OK, OK, I think you need to stop now. And-- No, no, no. It was like that. It was kept stopping things, just as we were getting in. And this only enhances my fear of, oh, God, she doesn't really want to play with me. And finally, I begin hard enough that it breaks the skin, not enough to cause blood, but enough to break that skin, fluid barrier. And I can't see it, but you know, as a bottom, sometimes you just know. Sure. You just know. You're like, nope, that's too much. Mm-hmm. We're going to call it now. And she goes-- I call that. You just broke skin. And then I licked it. I licked it because I was upset, frustrated, and afraid. And it was the most fucked-you lick that I had ever given. Yep. And she immediately called red to the entire scene, and we got to have a really long conversation real quick. Sure. And, you know, things ensued, but also we say that story to say that, yeah, consent violations happen. That doesn't mean it's abusive, right? He didn't do it from-- well, I mean, it came from a place of anger and hurt. He didn't do it because he wanted to hurt me. But that wasn't-- that's not the intent of the story. I tell you this story so that we can tell you this-- No, I mean, he next would have been a good way, but-- The consequences of that were in order to repair the relationships, and we were not going to play for six months. Yeah. So for six months, like I said, we lived four hours apart. We normally, up until this point, had played once a quarter for over a year. And I said, fine. For six months, we're not going to play. I want to make sure that you care about me for me. And this is how I personally needed him to rebuild trust. Everybody, it comes in a different way. You have to find, as a person who-- it's important to give forgiveness. You can't just move that goalpost. You have to find the thing that's truly going to bring you peace and be settled with it. And so I was like, for six months, I want to make sure-- and we can do something fun at the end of six months. But I won't going to at least come down once in that time. And we're going to talk, and we're not going to have-- we're not going to be intimate in any way, including Kink. Like I said, at the time, we weren't sexually intimate, either. And I want you to prove that you like me for me. Sure. It's not the Kink that we have involved, that it's not the relationships that we have, that it really is actually me. And it's not because you have built this image of me up in your head, and you're just frustrated with me that I can't live up to it. And the second thing also came from her former partner. He suggested that I make a writing as honest as I could about what had happened in where I was coming from in that moment. And it would live on my writing's page. It's still there. And it's still there. And it was an attempt to take accountability and be honest about my feelings, because absolutely, I-- in that moment, I was upset, and I intended, wrong. Sure. Even if I regretted it afterwards. That doesn't make it OK. But what he did afterward proved to me that it wasn't a level that was attached to him, that it was just sometimes we do bad things that doesn't mean we're bad people. Right. Right. And so that's kind of-- like I said, that's kind of where this idea came from is that we all do bad things. It doesn't mean we're bad people. And because of this experience, we've even had people come back, because we've told the story to more than one person. We've had people come back and be like, hey, he's a consent violator and try to get him kicked out of communities or groups or spaces. And because we've been honest about it, because the writing is up there, it's again, taken away the ugly stick, and they can't beat him with it. Sure. Because it's like, yeah, you're right. It happened. So what? We've moved on. We've dealt with it. We've done our best to repair the relationship to the best that we can. And obviously, it's healthy and it's growing strong. So strong. We're actually engaged. Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you. He's kind of cute. I like him. I know. I know. So yeah, so there's a consent violator. And I think that if more people were honest, it would make it to where we've all gone to munches and been told that it's a safe space. There isn't a such thing as a safe space. Our spaces are permeable by design. And if we were all more honest about the fact that there is no such thing as a safe space and that we're all human, it would make it easier from us all to learn from our mistakes. Because you're right. There's a name behind a lot of the reasons why tops won't do something that they would do previously, you know, a couple years before. But they just say, this is what I'm not willing to do. And that's that. Think about if we actually gave the opportunity for that story to be told, how much the next generation would learn from us. And we recognize that that is a very, very delicate subject and a very touching emotional subject for a lot of people. Well, I definitely agree with there is no such thing as a safe space. And I think as a community, we need to move away from the word safe in general because everybody has a different definition of safe. And yes, hey, I got my consent violated. He said it was safe. Well, to him, it was safe. Yes. And, you know, there's the mantra out there of safe, sane, consensual, which is good on paper, but in practice, again, we don't have a standard definition of safe and slave David Stein, who originally coined that phrase, moved away from it for that exact reason before his death. And that's why we kind of got, we're so obsessed with this word safety. We've got risk aware, consensual, kink. We've got prick. We've got a whole bunch of different things. And here's what happens. So this is, this is my personal personal rant is what happens is we have a group. We have a community you build it from scratch, you bring in all these people, everybody gets to know each other, everybody's happy. And then something happens. Some piece of drama happens, whether it's one girl decided to get all upset and say that somebody broke their red, even though it wasn't true, or some dumb acts in a predatory behavior that really skips everybody else off. What happens at that moment is whoever the leader is then goes, okay, we're kicking out, makes a judgment call, remove somebody from the space and now we're safe again. Well, that's just like I said, it's an illusion of safety. And again, instead of saying that that person did a bad thing by removing them from the group, we're saying that they're a bad person. Because think about the other people that we absolutely never let in any kind of kink space, sexual predators, right? Like if you've had a sexual assault, that's why they run background checks is because we want to make sure that we create this quote unquote, safe environment and remove any any possibility of potential harm. And by doing so, when somebody makes a mistake and we push them out, we're basically saying you're just as bad as a sexual assault predator and we no longer want him here. It's like going, you're a bad person, not that you did a bad thing. And I'm not saying that there aren't bad people out there because we all know the predators exist. But honestly, I know several people that have been kicked out of a community because they're dominant, got mad at them and the submissive was accused of starting drama within the community. Okay, yeah. And that means that they're a bad person because they don't know how to play well with others. So we're going to kick you out. And we're as a kink community, we're the we're the last house on the block where people go before they go to unhealthy unsafe spaces. And so if we kick them out, where are they going to go? And the fear of kicking them out is going to reinforce this like a precarious. Right. So I don't know how to word this and we're delicate way. So I'm just going to see what we have got this. And yeah, a very blunt way. You said the community, you said the person who has been wronged doesn't have the responsibility to forgive you, but they do have some sort of responsibility. Yeah. I mean, do they? I mean, let me put it this way. I've seen it multiple times, somebody gets accused of something, leadership kicks them out before they've even no or before they've even been told they've done something wrong. Yeah. Yeah. What we're and so I don't understand the question. Naomi, I jump in there. I was. I understand. So yeah, that is exactly, you know, something that we've seen before. And we are very personal responsibility dominated household. We view our own responsibility as first and foremost, I cannot mandate the actions of others. Sure. So one of the things I learned in therapy is if you're giving or if you're asking for forgiveness and expecting some kind of reciprocation from that forgiveness and the forgiveness wasn't for them. It was for you. Right. And that's just what we're saying is this technique of being accountable is not to, you know, quid pro quo. This is not necessarily going to have them forgive you. This is not necessarily going to prevent you from being kicked out. This is just when it is all said and done, you're accountable to yourself. And at the end of the day, you have to live with yourself and be like, I lived my life honestly. I was upfront and honest about what I did and explained it and I cannot control the actions of others, but I can do with myself at the end of the day. At the end of the day. I was always going to be, I mean, I was actually, this was, this is put, I watched a comedy skit by Ellen DeGeneres and she put it very well. She's like, I went to Chuckles Brown College. I did not go to business school. I was not taught how to run a business from the ground up. I made mistakes, right? It's kind of the same thing with kink leaders in the community is these people were not taught. No kink leader that I know of was taught how to be a kink community leader. Somebody thought it would be a good idea to run a group to hold, munch and have everybody come and they took it upon themselves to be the one to book the place everybody is going to gather that does not confer to them. It was the mesolomit. And so yeah, those times where somebody will come to a kink leader and go, Hey, this person did X and I'm upset at them. And for whatever interpersonal relationships are within that group, the kink leader goes fine, we're kicking them out because I like you better or whatever the reason may be. Or even I don't know what else to do. And so even if somebody made a mistake and there's, you know, they've apologized and they severely regret that action, there's nothing that they can do that's ever going to be good enough, quote unquote, to help repair the situation. And at that point, you have to again recognize there's only so many things that I as a person can do. Sure, I can apologize for my actions. And also again, it's an immediate react. A lot of times human beings think in the short term. So yeah, it sucks in a short term that you're isolated and now out in the cold and all of these people have a different view of you than you would prefer. Keep in mind that if this happened to you, it's not, you're not going to be the last person this happens to because it's a reflection upon the leader themselves and how they run their group, not you. And if you watch a lot of times with those types of groups where people are treated unfairly due to personal bias, you wind up with this group of outcasts that create their own kink group. And that's how you start to get clicks in the kink community. I don't know a single city that doesn't have two competing kink groups. Right. And normally it's like, I hate that person because of x, y, and z reason and how they treated Sally Sue, right? It's always a personal bias. It's not normally, it's not normally well. They're over there doing their thing and we're over here doing our thing and we just live together in perfect harmony. So what we're saying is all things being equal, we cannot control the actions of others. It is important to be tricky yourself. Thank you. I can't feel like we blew your mind. No, not at all. So let me be more specific with my previous question. Do you believe if you're the person who is wronged, do you have a responsibility to tell the person who wronged you that they fucked up? Yes. I think that you should be honest to yourself. I think that it is your choice to say, hey, this is, this is the way that you hurt me. I don't think that you have to. I think that is a choice for everyone to face with themselves. That is the way that I would handle that situation. So just to make sure I heard what you said is if I am the person who is wronged, I feel like I have an obligation to tell the person who wronged me that they fucked up. Yeah. Yes. Obligation, I think that you have a choice. Agreed. Because some, some things I can forgive and some things I can't. Sometimes I have to sit with it and figure it out. What I don't need to do is go gossip to everybody else in my, whatever group and let them know that somebody else wronged me or that I feel wronged without talking to the person who did, did the thing, right? Right. Sure. Because I feel like a lot of times it's, because it's so hard when we make a mistake, to go to the other person and go, hey, I feel violated. I feel hurt. I feel like you did something that really bothered me. I've had, so for an example, I've had previous partners in the past where during this scene, I was not, they broke a red, but I was in a headspace where I wasn't able to say something at the moment. And I went back three or four days later and I said, hey, this thing that you did in the scene really made me uncomfortable and I wasn't okay with it. And they were like, well, you know what? You didn't say so at the time and you seem to enjoy it. So why was that a problem? That's a red flag. Oh, obviously. Yep. And that's when you go, okay, now I take it to my community leader. Now I need to let people know. But if you go, if I had instead gone, hey, my partner did X, Y and Z and I'm really upset about it, that's not fair to the person who wrongfully. That's just spreading gossip and rumors. And in my opinion, going to damage the relationship that you're trying to build with another human being. And even when you do bring this forward, we feel like it is important to stick to the facts. It is not emotionally charged, like, you know, you're a bad person or you're a concerned violator. It is, hey, this is something that you did that I didn't appreciate. And that's where you can find a lot of different communication books. Again, not all community leaders read these. I would suggest a lot of community leaders to read books like nonviolent communication, verbal judo. Those are two excellent books that I specifically have read that I stand behind and think help create good, open ways of helping people understand your perspective. But that's not something that's common within the Kink community is clear, nonviolent, emotionally vulnerable communication. Sure. Did that answer your question? I believe so. Okay. Going back to something that I know this was like kind of just briefly kind of touched upon earlier of restorative justice. Like it was just briefly mentioned that it's not the community's responsibility to help you with owning your ship, especially if you're going, hey, I fucked up. So where does, where does restorative justice come into play on this when it involves, hey, I fucked up, but it's something that's as part of the community saying, hey, we're also telling you that you fucked up. You know what? I can't really talk about the sort of justice. I'm not trained in restorative justice. Neither is Kit Kat. I mean, we'd like to joke that my scene name is Dr. Bubbles. I'm the doctor the same way that someone named Sir was knighted by the queen. Restorative justice is a technique that you have to be trained in. They're one of us par. I get asked about restorative justice. I'm always in that off because I really can't. I really can't. I really can't ask that we're not as fluent as we'd like to be in that statement. What I meant by the fact that it's nobody else's responsibility to own your ship and be accountable is I see so many people when they make a mistake or they do something in error in a relationship. They'll immediately go, well, they did X, Y and Z or well, the community. The community told me that I could do this. It's not the community's responsibility to be like, no, no, no, we did not say so. That's not what we meant. I'm talking about making sure that there's self accountability there. Once you've become accountable for something, it's my understanding once you've accepted responsibility for your part because everything I truly believe that a lot of things are built together. Nothing's built in a vacuum. But that doesn't mean that it's not heavily on one person to take self accountability. After that happens, that's where restorative justice can come in and that practice can be had. Like Sir said, that varies by community to community and that's something that neither... I've run a lot of books, but it's not something I'm fluent in. I'd like to really, really stress that restorative justice is a new technique, but is a technique that you need to be fluent in and actually know how it works. You can't just feel like we're going to institute restorative justice because I read a Google page on it. That's... In my way, just so you're aware, I've actually had somebody do that is I was like, we need to have a mediation situation happen and I asked for help from outside sources because there's a lot of therapists, whether we know it or not, there are so many therapists in the Kink community. There's a lot of actual good recent blogs from the national, national, sexual, I don't know. National Coalition of Sexual Freedom. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you so much. Yes, that one. There's so many good ways to find help for practicing restorative justice. But it's out there if it's wanted and what happened was I told people that I would love to use these techniques and that I had friends that would help me do so. I said that would be great. And then I was dropped into a chat with multiple community leaders and then told to mediate at night at a clock at night. Oh gosh. No. No. No, believe that. That's not restorative justice. I never would. Urbage that they use was okay, make your case. Oh yeah, that wasn't. It was okay, make your case. What the? And then at night at a clock at night and then I said no, I had a panic attack. I said no, thank you. I'm going to bed. I woke up at 10, you know, and I turned my phone off, woke up, turned it on at 10 a.m. with a cup of coffee in my hand and I had 184 text messages. Oh, shit. And I'm like this. This doesn't seem accurate. This doesn't seem right now. To make a long story short, this is it. I'm talking from a personal level when I say that a lot of community leaders are not experienced in this and because of the fact that it's a newer topic, it's hard to make the right actions unless you lean on people with expert opinions. And I wish that that happened more. There is this expectation that I'll say that when this happened, I firmly believe that the community leaders would come in and be wise and mitigate things. And in this instance, I was wrong. It was cute, bright, I didn't wish you'd know. The system would say this all. It's great. I was like, oh, it's the system. I'm like, oh, yeah, it's a more child. This line is lawful good. I was like, yes, the system will help us. And I'm like, yeah, I can't try. I'm like, there is no help. I am the help. We either make it work or it doesn't work at all. That's why that's why I really, really want to stress to your listeners that, you know, yes, I do believe that group leaders on the whole have good intentions at heart. I don't believe that they always have the right training to follow through. And again, there is the training out there. If you look for it, it's just a lot of time. I also feel like we don't hold our leaders accountable. We just expect them to create quote unquote, safe spaces. Sure. And nobody can, again, nobody can create a truly quote unquote, safe space. Right. There is no such thing as safe. Thank you very much for that response and candor about restorative justice and actually, you know, finding somebody who is more of an expert onto it and referring to them. So I very much appreciate that transparency with that. So thank you very much. Wait, we're not the end all be an all we've all been. I mean, it would be nice if I was omnipotent, but unfortunately, so there's actually, there's actually a confusion. Probably that that always comes in mind. We're talking about leadership and says in a time of strife, the leaders sought to organize his country in order to do so. He started to organize his home state in order to do that. He organized his hometown in order to do that. He organized his family, but in order to do that, we had to first organize his own heart insult. And that's what we're saying with this is, you know, sometimes we want to find help elsewhere. But until we first, you know, start with ourselves, like, how can I make a difference? How can, what can I do to help this situation that I am in is hard to then look out work? Yeah. So yeah, it would be great if our leadership was healthy and well balanced and in ready to help and equipped to do so. It would be great if our community was full of these people that could help, but until we live in that magical society, first seek to organize yourself. Because I'm going to say how many Americans right now are completely mentally healthy. Wait, that's all? The King, the King community is well known for being populated by mentally healthy people. Yes, exactly. Actually, the King community has a higher percentage of mentally well people than the general population. Because we all know we're crazy. We acknowledge it and we're seeking to work. If you acknowledge that you're crazy, you're saying if you think you're saying you're crazy, yeah, that's the King community. Jumping back in minute or two, sometimes leadership in our community is just the person who owns the space or has been around the longest and they don't really have any leadership qualities or experience or training or anything like that. They've been nominated by default of, hey, I was the person that is willing to. Not me, but you're the president and therefore I am one. Right. Well, I mean, there's that or it's the individual who is the, hey, I don't mind actually making the phone call to make the reservation. Hey, congratulations for the new leader. Is that so? Yes, you have now been appointed by and voluntary, right? Right. I always say it's really scary when I'm the smartest man in the room. It happens. It does. It's lovely when you're voluntary, but think about how fast that creates our burnout and how unhealthy that then becomes for your community. Because at that point, you, I have had this happen. Where people were burnt out in my community. And when I asked for help, they went, well, you know what, this really isn't our, our deal, but I'll do my best. And then when the situation was finally addressed, they were like, well, we finally got everybody here. What else do you want from us? We're doing our best. And that's not what I want in a leader. That's not what I expect in a leader. And I know that a lot of people, we put this perception on our leaders of expectations of what we require and we forget that they're human. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I also think that we exist in the Noah society where there are authority figures and people in charge that have qualifications that they went to the schools and had to compete with other people. We are, the community is not a democracy is an energy. And sometimes all it is is the person in charge just had the bright idea to start a group. And, you know, they're qualified to, you know, make the reservations, but again, you know, like I'm a massage therapist. I run a rope group. There is absolutely nothing except the fact that I was like, hey, let's run a rope group. And I know some, you know, good anatomy and physiology to be like, hey, don't put rope here. It does not qualify me to be able to necessarily be able to work every single conflict with the ease of a skilled mediator. I'm a massage therapist. I can do my best. I'm going to make mistakes. Well, sure. Sure. I mean, hell, even those of us who, you know, work in mental health and are used to helping people resolve different styles and types of conflict, this is, you know, the way we live in the, you know, in this, in the keen community, it's different. It's a thing of how would this be resolved? How would you help somebody to not really help somebody, but kind of help somebody own their own shit? Yeah. Because, and also, like they said, that's the thing is you can't make somebody own their own shit. They have to actually realize it. Right. And that's, that's very frustrating. You can't make anybody do anything. And that's extremely frustrating in some of these spaces. One of the reasons though, people don't want to own their own shit is because they're afraid if they're due, they're going to be exiled with the pedophiles. And I feel like we need to make it more common to say, okay, even if you make a mistake, like, why don't we put it in the discussions and the group bylines that FYI, this is how we handle consent violations. This is how we handle fuck ups. Sure. This is, you know, this is the situation. So if there is something that goes wrong, we want you to tell us so that way we can, we can do our best to resolve the situation to where nobody winds up isolated or in a place of misunderstanding. In the flip side of recognizing that you are a human and you're fowlable and that's okay, is also extending that race to other people is, you know, everybody in this community is human and they are fowlable. For the example, when Cat was, you know, thrown into this chat group with, you know, all the leaders of the local community, they made a decision that I personally view as a bad one, but they made the decision. But for the really, really long time, I had an accident against them. I had anger in my heart any time that their name is brought up. But recently in the past, you know, you've heard in a half, I've recognized, in working on this, I recognize that just as I am human, just as I am fowlable, so are they. And they did the best they felt they could. For burnt out human beings running groups for years without any kind of, you know, without any true understanding, help and support, it's, it's a lot. So did they help? I don't feel so. Did they make the right choice? I don't feel so. Did they try? Did they try? There was effort. There was effort. You know, if I want race extended to us, first, I feel like I need to look at other people like, okay, you hurt me. You caused a emotional theme in me, but you're human. So there's a really good story and I'm going to butcher it to hell and I recognize I'm going to butcher it to hell, but I'm going to do my best is there's a man and he's just fed up with life. And he's absolutely just freaking had it. And so he sees a boat on a lake and he's like, you know what? I'm going to pedal out into the middle of this lake and I'm going to be away from everybody in the world. Nobody is going to bother me. And I'm going to have just, we've all wanted those, you know, 30 minutes of peace and quiet. I just need 30 minutes of peace and quiet for the world to just lead me alone. I just, if I don't get it, I'm going to just absolutely explode. So he rose out into the middle of the lake and he finally finds his inner peace. He's looking up the sky. Takes a deep breath. And then as he's looking up the sky, he closes his eyes and then he feels another boat hit his and he sits up in that boat and he's already to turn this other person and and be like, hey, how dare you hit my boat and then he realizes that the other boat is empty and he recognizes that the anger that he feels comes within himself. It's not from another person. You have a choice when that boat hits you, when the empty boat hits you, you have a choice. You can either choose to accept the fact that this action has happened or you can shoot and move on with that understanding or you can choose to respond with violence and anger. And I've recognized so many times in my life that sometimes I'm just the empty boat that just happens to hit somebody the wrong way. Sure. It happens with our leaders or that's what happens with sir, right? I was when sir and I played and he broke my red, I was just the empty boat. I just happened to be the thing that finally pushed him over the edge where all of those insecurities, all of that pain, all of that hurt finally came to the forefront where he felt truly scared and it came out in more violence than he wanted. It's not my fault that he did that. So it's not my fault when my leaders act in a way that is hurtful or mean or angry, sometimes I'm just the empty boat. Gotcha. Does that make sense at all? Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. By the way, it wasn't until the end of that story that I realized you were saying red instead of rib, I thought he broke your rib. Oh my goodness. Oh no. Oh gosh. It won't be hell. No, no, no. See, see what we have this thing where I'll put a thumb over a floating rib and it's a little bit of fear of play. I've never broken a rib, but every time I put a thumb there, she gets this irrational fear, like, oh my god, he's going to break everything. And I was like, no, I just want to tickle you. He and I are very much into ESM and humiliation play. Fear and fear. Fear and fear. Oh, what's it called dignification play? Was that what it's called? Yeah, forced praise or a verse degradation we learned new word that is now instead of degradation is dignification. Dignification. Tying, tying someone down, get all up in their space, whispering your, you're a pre-sale, aren't you? You are the most obedient person that I've had the privilege to pheiglit. It is an honor to be in New Presented. Yeah, watch them. Squirr. Yeah. We have a forced praise class. I will happily send you notes. It's one of my favorite things. So I'm in the humiliation play. And this is very much being able to do humiliation play without making me feel like a shitty person. Sure. It's humiliation play while giving me a compliment and making me recognize that I don't need to be humiliated about. Why am I humiliated over the fact that he called me a good person? I don't understand. Why do it? Why am I so embarrassed? Why do I hate being seen in this manner? That's forced praise. Gotcha. Before we move into the part of the show that we like to call inside the Kinkster studio, is there anything else you'd like to share on this topic? That we did this really just to show us all, but we're all fall-fall-fallible as human beings. And from every, every side of it, from the person who is abused can make mistakes, the person who's made the mistake, or the person who made the mistake, is fallible, the person who had the thing happen to them is fallible and make mistakes and anybody else involved. We all have different perspectives and we're all human. And we don't have all the answers, but we do recognize and want to just show people that by continuously creating this idea of shame against the idea of making mistakes and using that to create fall-safe spaces, it's not helping anybody. We don't have the solution to keep predators out. We don't have the solution to whom people be nice to each other. We're just espousing the idea of, you know, be kind to yourself and be kind to others. At the end of the day, if that's all that you can achieve, then you can all right. Except for responsibility for your mistakes and everything else, it might suck in the beginning, but in the long run, it will do you better even if it's just your own piece of mind. Sure. All right. Well, that brings us to the part of the show we like to call inside the Kinkster studio. This is where we get to know you a little bit better in our own special and unique way. Are you game? Yes. Sure, we're not. So my first question will be, what is the origin of your scene name? So I came along a long time ago and I land far, far away. So my middle name is Anne, so that was easy. My first name is Catherine. Go ahead, try and find me. Guess how many Catherine Anne's there are in the world? Anne's? I like the idea of Kitty Cat Anne. Well, there was already a Kitty Cat Anne on Fet Life. And so I couldn't have that name. So I'm like, oh, well, I'll just shorten it. And I was like, it'd be cute to be Kit Cat because you know everybody wants to break me off a piece of that Kit Cat bar. Right? I thought it was absolutely adorable. Also, by the way, I do not like Kit Cats. And yeah, that's how I came up with my name. It was very practical. Nothing, nothing jazzy about it. Go ahead, sir. So this is actually one of my favorite stories. We had been playing together for about nine months at this point. And the way that we usually built scenes is because we only played once a quarter. We had to have like three months to plan a scene out. And it's all started from the first dance of Catherine went, do you know how you boil a frog? Because you all have heard this story, right? How you boil a frog? Yeah. Okay. You turn the frog in regular water and you turn the heat up and then you boil a frog. So she says, I cannot stand being cold in wet. But you also, you can't boil a human, right? You're not going to boil me. That's a bad idea. But I also don't like the cold. I mean fair. So what if we just flipped it? So what we want to do is we want to do a submersion scene where she gets dunked under. And over time, we add in bags of ice. And we'll do like three. We have a handbag of ice, but by the way, into a bathtub with me in it, cold, wet, naked, bound. I have this little ring that I can use on the side of the bathtub in case he's dunked me under the water so long I can't breathe and I need to come up. It was great. I love it. I hear this and I was like, okay, I'm intrigued. Can I add one thing in? I want to add an element of objectification. So what if we weren't doing just this just for kicks and giggles? We're doing this because I want to get, you know, biometrics. Like how do you respond when you get dunked under? And how does your heart rate go out? So we're going to first get you resting biometrics, get your resting heart rate, get your resting mental state. And I'm going to make notes. I'm going to be dressed up in a bun down shirt and a tie in a, in a, yes, he was in a three piece, you know, tie, vest. And so there I was. You know, sitting on the toilet, making notes in a little notebook while I had dunked her under three times and added ice in and dunked her under a couple more times. And she looks at me making notes and goes, okay, well, it actually started. No, no, no, and she goes, I'm like bubbles. So here's the thing is, he was, okay, so when water enters a bathtub, you know how it kind of makes, um, gurgles and bubbles. Yeah. And I was seeing these and it reminded me of the finding Nemo. You remember the guy who goes, bubbles right and walks out every time that the lid pops up. I don't know why that's where my brain went, but that's what was on my brain. And he was sitting there on the toilet with me in the bathtub, laying down kind of like he's, you know, like you're going to baptize me over and over and over again. And like how does that make you feel? And after a while, because you try and poke and prod with all kinds of different remarks and statements and he just sits there, no noise, no nothing, just right notes. I even looked at this notebook later and it said subject uses humor to disguise. To reestablish sense of control. That was it. Subject uses humor to reestablish sense of control and sure enough, so I'd made quite a few offhand comments. And finally, I'm like, you know what? You're enjoying this too much. You definitely, you look like Dr. Freud. You need to have a pipe. You should have a pipe and it should, you know, how does that make you feel? But instead of it having smoke, it should be bubbles because you're having way too much fun and it deserves to be bubbles. So yeah. So let's do that. Dr. Freud and Dr. Bubbles. And to this, I just go, hmm. And then I dunk her under again. And I hold her under until like she starts struggling and then she lets her breath out and then bring her back up and it's like, and that's another way to make bubbles. Yeah. So his favorite response when people goes, oh, Dr. Bubbles, that's such a cute name and he goes, you want to know how I got it? And they go, yeah, should I love to? I held her under until the bubbles stopped. So yeah. So yeah, it is like the number is the weirdest feeling walking into convention that it's our first convention we've never been there. And they still don't know you, don't know that you're a presenter. They just see the name tag Dr. Bubbles and you see all the little's just light up. Oh, this is such a cute name. I was like, man. But then by the end of it, you just see everybody going, okay. Mr. Bubbles was that bubble bath we had as a kid. Oh, Mr. Bubbles. Awesome. Yeah. So I got a doctorate. I have a PhD in pain. So what's your favorite toy in the toy bag? So our mind, okay, can we be really corny and can I say his mind? Because seriously, the thing that those, I mean, I mean, it's keeping it a bag you can. It has to be in a bag. So, so yours is knives, why is it knives? Because I like it when you scare the shit out of me and they're fast just way to get me there. That's true. You are very, very scared of the knives. For me, I like to say every time everybody asks me this, I'd like to say that I flagged swim cap. Oh, and a $12 swim cap from Academy is my favorite toy because swim caps are made out of silicone. And silicon, that swim cap fits just perfectly over somebody's face. It is really, really fun to watch them try to suck in a breath and see that silicon just, you know, I don't know. Do not try this at home without. I don't know. I put it in a disclaimer. Do not do this. I teach a breath play class, go to that class, we'll teach you the ways the swim cap. But yeah, it's fun because I can still kind of breathe, but feeling it like when you suck in, it kind of adheres to the facial features. Uh-huh. And it always kind of makes me feel like the mummy. You know when he's in the sand, in the video picture, and that's like the face I make in the swim cap. And that's what I think about every time we do that. We actually did this on stage for our fantasy. What's the brand for? Her makeup adhered to the swim cap. So afterwards I flipped it inside out and saw her wear the lipstick, had kind of paced it on. Yeah, it was nice. I liked it. Yeah, those are these. What is the strangest combination of words you've ever searched for on porn hobby or ASMR site? That one to our side. Oh, that's a good light, like, because there's so many. It's like, because there's monster fucker, that was a part popular one. Food a cream pie gang bang. That's a good one. We're not gang bang. Cream pie, yeah. Food a gang bang crew fire. Hintie in pregnant. Oh, reverse glory holes. That's, that's, that's a good one. Yeah. I think that's a good like top four circle. Uh-huh. I feel like we're giving up, like I don't need people to know all of my games. Although we're in Texas. We're not allowed on porn hobby. Oh yeah, we're not allowed on. I've heard. Oh, it's a set, it's very sad. It's, I'm a part of, I have my profile there. We come back. I promise if you leave the state, you'll, you'll, it resets itself and you'll actually be able to like, you know, I've been told that VPN networks would work, but that means I required too much technology and I do not have that. I'm not, do we need this? Yeah, I'm like, I'm not the technology savvy ones. That is not what I'm here for. I have other skills. Like, I do not, that does not have to be one of them. I recognize my skills and where I do not have them. Okay, so speaking of skills, what's the most useless skill that you possess? Oh, useless. Oh, dear. Yeah, useless. I can unclog, I can undo the drain in the bathtub with my toes. Like unscrew it or clear the hair out of it, you. Like, no, just like you know how you need to pull the drain open? Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. You have a full bathtub of water, I can undo the, yeah, with my toes. Oh, fantastic. Like, but where else does that come in handy? Oh, well, the other one I've got is useful though. I am way, way too into Disney trivia. Oh, yeah, you are. Wait, it's okay. I am so into Disney trivia is supposed into DreamWorks just because Jeffrey Kassenberg needs to be at Disney. Deep cut, sir. Deep cut. Deep cut.(laughs) Starting tomorrow. Okay. Your nipples are going to taste like Doritos. Cool ranch or traditional nacho cheese. No, I'd rather just not have nipples. Can we go with not, I will just not have nipples? You can just cut them off at that point, I'm good. Like, doesn't have to believe in a scene. Can we substitute cheetos instead? No, you have choices, sir. All right. I guess I could go with cool ranch. I was going to say, if you're not going to be licking them, doesn't your partner get to pick? I was saying that you're going to be tasting them. What is it now? Why you would pick?(laughs) I just can imagine having a new partner getting all, I'm heavy and they lip my nipple for the first time in a week. Go, what the fuck? It smells like corn. Now, no, see what? Okay, so what some girl needs to do just to fuck with somebody is get those little sticky pasties that you put under like, under dresses so you won't see your nipples. On the inside of them put like a flavoring of some sort, like artificial banana or something. Cool ranch to redo pasties. Yes, yes. You have to put them on your nipples because if you know you're going to get some action in that way when they take them off, they'll eat, oh my god, that would be absolutely. It's not all the middle man. Just, you know, figure out a way to make Dorito pasties so that you have those little triangles right over your nipple. Oh, Dorito edible pasties. Yeah, going into Oh God, help me. Sugar water? I don't know. I've been discovered a new, I've been making new, I can't get products.(laughs) Sugar, sugar paste, something that's, you know, food, food, grape, paste. I like to say. I'm just saying that there's enough sticky things out there that you could make a, a pastie with a, like, you know how you have two-sided tape? You just have a pastie that's two-sided that's edible. And that way when you're ready to go out for the, you know, you ready to take everything off, you just take off the plastic part of the pastie and then people can eat nipples. This sounds like a viable product. It's a pass-moly.(laughs) You're welcome. We'll get right on that. If anybody out there listening right now wants to develop that product, all we want is a shout-out. Yeah, we just, I just put, like, our name in the by-line. That's all we want. That's just so.(laughs) Oh, fuck. There is a whole bunch of kinky fuckers out there. I am sure somebody will come up with something at some point in time, especially when it comes to, like, you know, those who are definitely into, we more into food play and, and, you know, trying to figure it all out and everything like that. I'm just saying, I might buy them. You find a good flavor. I would probably be a happy consumer of this product. You know what we're creating punch, somebody can do it. I think so, I believe in you guys.(laughs) Yeah, I did not think Doritos or Cool Ranch would go into, go into edible pastie nipples, but I mean, that's the place. Well, that was not the combination of words I was expecting the other day. Well, what's, what's something that you are willing to share about you that people would be surprised to know about you? Wow, that's okay. See, I need never understand what people, like, see in me, so that's a very hard question for me. I guess I am very open and honest about most of my mental, menageries, unhealth. So that wouldn't be, I don't know. Would you like me to narrow something you're willing to use? Yes, in the early 2000s. How about that? Okay. Neopets. Neopets? That works. It was gonna say, if you wanted me to narrow it down, I'd be happy to narrow this down to something like, you know, strange hobby or something or another like that, like random hobby. I checked in on my Neopets store every single day. Oh, I went to a participatory school when I was younger. And I was a gymnast. Grace. Yeah. Oh, oh, oh. I was on the floor of the Denver Women's Bat Balls Suite 16 when Bernie Griner got cut down the net. Very cool. Very cool. I don't think any of us knew what that meant, but okay. I knew. It's okay. I'm really good. Somebody does. It's the reverse unocar. You get to ask us one question, but the catch is nobody else. Nobody else has asked the same question already. What is something that you feel is a taboo subject in kink? You would like to see more of like CNC's kind of taboo, dark age plays kind of, you kind of get them. Yeah. That's a good question. So far. Yeah. And I'm like so for me. I see it in some circles just because I, so I know that I straddle and I'm part of us almost like to two kind of worlds onto different things when it comes to things like leather and kink because of how I came up into the community and how I came up into things and such like that. But in that, so I see certain things more on some aspects of the leather community, especially in the gay leather men's community versus the general kink community. But I would like to see more of talking about things like certain edge plays such as like water sports and how to do it safely or rubber and how to do the different things or such like if you do into more mummification or adronification or things that are edgy, but are not always talked about because they can be looked down upon, especially like some of those edgy or stuff like that. I mean, you know, I come across dark age play a bit. I've got a bit more I come across, you know, some of the other things a little bit more, but that stuff I don't see as much, you know, like fisting or such, those I would love to see more of. Nice. I agree. I see. Party Hair Women teaches a great fisting class. Yes. I would love to see something in regards to water sports. And then I agree. I think that would that something I've never seen. And mummification, I think one of the reasons it's not taught as much is because a lot of people don't know how to fill up in an hour with that specific topic. So they're seeing something along the lines of mummification or bondage isolation. That kind of thing would be really cool. And then that's the thing is like there really is a mummification class at the young vanilla where we met and I have not seen it taught again since then. That's kind of what's said about sometimes with the prisoner circuit is you'll see a presenter and then it'll be great, but they have life things happen. And even though they were an expert in their field, you never you never really see it again. Right. Oh, sounding's another one and not just for, not just for A-mad people, but also for A-Fab people too. Echo teaches a really good class about that for people who have a vagina, sounding for people who have a vagina. I think for me like all the weird obscure stuff I would like to see more of, I already teach on because I mean, I'm just drawn to the obscure stuff and then nobody teaches on it. The things like chainfisting and quills and guash and cell popping. Be the change that you wish to see in the world I've met. Right. Well, thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you. I appreciate you talking about two areas human fuck ups in the kink world. For listeners, upcoming synagogue classes, Electric mayhem one and two, uh, electric play with the Violet Wand, electric play without the Violet Wand, bratty daddies, body drumming, all coming up virtual and in person, check our website for specific details, but that does it. That's our show. Say, good night, little bit. Good night, little bit.