Ep28 - "Furries: A Cultural Revolution in Kink" with FoxxyLeigh

Ep28 - "Furries: A Cultural Revolution in Kink" with FoxxyLeigh

This is an exploration into how the furry community has created unique spaces for exploring kink. How the community rose from small room parties to massive conventions. The trials and tribulations that ran parallel to much of kink history and the scrutiny furries have come under.

FoxxyLeigh with over 15 years of experience in the lifestyle, has devoted themselves to education and outreach for younger generations and the disenfranchised. A firm supporter of LGBT rights, a queer, gender fluid, poly bog witch, with a talented tongue made to tickle more than your brain.

• Fetlife.com/FoxxyLeigh

Welcome to the SINagogue. they call me the Rabbi. I put the SIN in SINagoguge.and am a cisgender, ambimorous, gynesexual, sadistic bratty daddy-dom. Sex therapist by day and a kink educator by night, I help people make their kink a religious experience. I am a mental health professional, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is not a replacement for therapy. Seek out the assistance of a trained professional for help with your situation.  

Reminder, we try to make our content as inclusive as possible regardless of gender, orientation, role in the lifestyle, etc., but we do inherently speak from our own point of view. We want to learn from our mistakes. If you feel like we said something offensive, let us know. Reach out via our website or call us at 469-269-0403.

Today’s show was brought to you in part by the letters S and M, and the Number 69. 

*San Dimas High School Football Rules*

Chapters

• 1:32 Introductions
• 15:46 A Bunch of Weirdos
• 20:46 Joe Rogan Can Fuck Himself
• 30:43 No True Way
• 36:16 Fursonias
• 46:00 The Suit
• 1:00:32 Final Thoughts
• 1:01:40 Inside The Kinkster's Studio

Transcript

1:14

Hosting with me today is my partner, my ADHD squirrel wrangler, my submissive, my brat, my little, my pony, or just my little pony. Ah! The Gilbert to my Sullivan little bit. This is episode number 28, and with us today is Foxy Lee, to talk about Ferries, a cultural revolution in Kink. This is an exploration into how the furry community has created unique spaces for Exploring King. How the community rose from small room parties to massive conventions. The trials and tribulations parallel much of Kink history, and the scrutiny furries have come under. But first, a word from our sponsor. With over 15 years of experience in the lifestyle, Foxy Lee has devoted themselves to education and outreach for younger generations and the disenfranchised. Their firm supporter of LGBT writes a queer gender fluid, "polybog which, with a talented tongue, made to tickle more than your brain." Thank you for being here in the synagogue. Let's talk about furries, a cultural revolution in Kink. Welcome, welcome. So let's start with the most famous figure. Hey, Shalom in your home. What is a furry? Well, that is quite the place to start. When we're talking about furries, we're talking about typically an individual that feels a connection to an anthropomorphized version of themselves. This can be a person that, for whom this version of themselves is the person they wish they could be. Maybe it's a person that they feel like they exude on a daily basis, but it's more exaggerated. In some cases, it's just them, but with cute ears and a tail. In many cases, it doesn't have to be an anthropomorphized creature. It can just be a normal animal that they feel a connection to. But it is in some way a method by which an individual can better express themselves through art, media, all kinds of things. It can be incredibly freeing. And it's kind of a dreamy to the topic in all honesty is I was never really into furry culture, but the history of it I've found to be rather fascinating, honestly. And the fact that I was at one point, one of those persons that denounced furries and thought they were all degenerates and they were just going to go around having sex with their pets. And then when I finally met a lot of furries and kind of got to know them on a personal level, I realized that they were on the same journey as I was just trying to figure out who they were. They were just doing it differently. So the furry and being a pet player. So the difference kind of comes down to personification. And a lot of cases, a furry is just a person that looks like an animal. Like a busty fox girl or like a wolf individual. Typically they stand on both legs and they do human activities just with an animal exterior. Well, pet play is usually more regressive. It's getting back down to an animalistic kind of want and desire. It's more wanting to be in touch with that animal side. And what comes with that? You know, things like collars and leashes and wanting to be in the kennel and drink from bowls and playing with balls and getting pets and scritches. Which isn't to say that the two don't intersect in a lot of ways. Puppy girls and puppy boys, etc. Certainly can cross over into the two. But there are distinctions to be made and not every furry is going to be in the pet play. Just as every pet player isn't going to be a fur. But if pet play or do they have a different origin? So they have a distinctly different origin. There's an argument to be made that some of them probably came from pet play. But the origin is rather vast, honestly. If we look back at human history, a lot of animals have been anthropomorphized through cultures. This is seen in a lot of Greek culture and a lot of Chinese culture, Japanese culture. There are animals that are up or eight on two legs and they perform human actions. Most notably we see a lot of this kind of funny animal style, which is what it was colloquially known as in the 1800s. Artists would depict animals doing different things, like playing piano or taking a drive or playing badminton. One of the most recognizable from this time would have been Mr. Toad from the wind of the willows. And we see, especially in the 19th century, Panto animals showing up on British theater stages. People dressing as animals for the delight of others. But if we're talking about the modern furry, much of that kind of was derived from post World War II, Hera. In the Kassarang World War II, we had a lot of popular cartoons, like Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, Bugs Bunny, all of these anthropomorphized animals that were taking it to the Third Reich. And you also had a lot of superhero comics and the like. And a lot of these were very much America first and very in that vein. And post World War II, however, we had a counterculture revolution kind of coming up through comics. And now it would be comics with an X at the end. As opposed to the traditional comic books that were soon gilling under the comic code authority from the 1950s, these were small rough shot publications that were done in someone's basement and produced on local stands. And a lot of them took these, the idea of anthropomorphized animals doing things and turned it up to 11. So instead of, you know, they're driving a car or doing what not, they're doing cocaine. They're fucking each other. They're doing all of these things that are just unheard of. One of the most notable coming out of the 70s would have been Fritz the Cat made by Robert Crumb. Fritz was a flanderer. He did drugs. He was just not a great character. But for Robert Crumb himself, he created Fritz as a way of kind of exploring this other side of him that he couldn't be because he was a very shy individual. He was a very quiet kind of reserved person. But when you look at his art and his comics, you would think the complete opposite. This is a madman. But outside of Robert Crumb, you know, speaking of madmen, Fritz would be incredibly popular, especially in the 70s, due to Ralph Bakshi creating the movie, Fritz the Cat, which is really hard to find these days. I actually did find it. I believe it was through the library of Congress. There's a version of it that's existing. And if you really want a snapshot of late 60s, early 70s, America, there is no better way of doing that than the movie Fritz the Cat. It is so different. And there's so much in it that just you wouldn't, it wouldn't fly. But a lot of that history comes from those revolutionary and counterculture comics and what was known then as the funny animal fandom, this notion of people are wrote and whatever people they kind of do, whatever they want their own thing. Why don't we show animals doing this? Why don't we show this because it's far more funny when an animal does it than when a human does it. How has it become this thing it is today with the elaborate mascot type costumes? And the spread of furry culture was, it started relatively small. It started with like APAs. And if you don't know what an APA is, it's an amateur press association. And they created a bunch of artists get together and they create a fan made magazine and they create stories and do art and whatever in it. And it's very exclusive. And the very first ones that came out was called Voodey, V-O-O-T-I-E. And there are small things, there are small portions of it that still exist. This came out in like 1976. And while these were coming out, the other thing that kind of contributed to this rise was the, was anime from Japan kind of slowly becoming more popular on the West Coast. So you had conventions that would go on and anime could sometimes be caught on like Hawaiian television and you could record it on a VHS or whatever you had. But the other way that you could get anime is whenever you had Japanese tourists coming to these conventions, you could connect with them and they would trade recent anime for old American television shows. So if you want to watch the latest Dragon Ball, you got to give up some leave it to beaver or some my three sons, which I find incredibly amusing, but it's the way that it was done. It's how things like Mazinger and Astro Boy got really popular. But there was a, there was a person by the name of Mark Merlino and he was instrumental in creating something called CFO, which was the cartoon fantasy organization. So the cartoon fantasy organization really was big in LA, but it also had a New York branch. And you, they did their advertising through fan magazines, through APAs and these sorts of things and it kind of was just worth mouth. The other big thing is as time went on in the 80s, you also had BBS boards, you know, the bolts and board systems on computers on the early internet. And so there were things, there sites set up called the one of them most notably was the Tigers den. It was founded originally as a science fiction board, but it was abandoned by its owner and Merlino actually took it over to discuss the funny animal fandom as it was being developed. In other places, you had artists who were drawing more sensuous looking animals. People like Steve Galaci, who was very popular at the time, there was an entire tabletop RPG built around these anthropomorphic animals going to war and stuff like this. There was a comic, an official comic anthology called albedo anthropomorphic that Galaci was a part of. And one of the most notable characters that came out of albedo was Usagi Yujimbo, the the rabbit samurai that is very popular and like teenage mutant interturtles and whatnot. But you also had a bunch of other things like mox, which depending on who you ask, mox, they were, it was a massive, no, I can't remember what the, what it says for it's essentially, it's a bunch of dorks that get together and role play essentially it's the shared world that a bunch of people get on a PC and they actually role play like characters multi user created kingdom, I think is what it stands for. That's up for debate, but it is essentially just a place for people to come together and make their characters and play in this world and worlds usually have rules. And as long as you stay within the confines of those rules and you're not a dick, people will accept your character and there are a lot of these and oddly enough furry muck, which is the one, which is with the biggest one is still going on. Well, that is, that is a 30, I think it's 35 years old now, like that is, that is older than most people I know. Like most of the people who go to this class, it's older than them and it astounds me every day. But through these boards, eventually, we would have room parties at anime conventions where people would get together, they'd watch anime and they'd also, there also be furries among them. And so eventually these turned into furry parties where they would discuss furry animal fandom things and eventually the name furries, I think, stuck around around this time just as a, just as a shorthand for the funny animal fandom of the furry. And whatever they were calling it at the time in 1989, we actually saw something called conference zero. It was the very first furry convention, like exclusively this was for people who were furs. It was in Costa, Mesa, California. And for the time, the attendance was impressive. They had 65 attendees over the week, over the one day that they held it, which for the advertising they did over BBS boards through fan magazines, through mocks and muds, that is, that is something else. But what we see here astoundingly is that there were people who showed up with tails and ears and there was even a person that showed up in a full costume. I believe it was supposed to be a fawn, but to add to that, they had a riding crop, they had thigh high boots and very distinct leather, like the stereotypical dominatrix kind of look. And from there, if you go back and look, you see a lot of other furries that have harnesses, like leather harnesses, they've got collars on and leashes. We're talking about people who are using this, this anonymity that the suit gives you to be their authentic self, something that we talk about a lot in kink, right? Being your authentic self and they are out here doing it. And this is around the time that a lot of us in the kink community, we're still on the back foot it feels like, you know, the community at large is still reeling from things like stone wall, the AIDS epidemic, just all of these horrendous things that are going on. And yet we've got this other community thriving and being authentic. Now this isn't the course come with no troubles whatsoever. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. You know, you'd have a lot of people, the cops would get called because they think that there's like bootlegs happening, they're sex in the, in the foyer, there's, you know, child, there's, this is clearly some kind of child sex trafficking ring or some of that. And the community itself wasn't perfect, you know, the community itself wasn't perfect. Sometimes you, you get those, those weirdos out there who are like, you know, we're both in fur costumes. Let's just blow each other in the lobby of the hotel. It's like hold on a little bit of decor. I'm okay. I get it once a wolf dick who doesn't, but this is not the place for it. You know, go back to your rooms. But that's really where it all, a lot of it started was these, it started from very small, very humble beginnings of these tiny groups and from this counter culture. And that's the big part about furries is it's always kind of been counter culture. Which is one of them, the main parallels I see within kink as well because kink is incredibly counter culture. And it was born from that sort of counter culture revolution that took place post-war war too. Sure. So you mentioned people clutching their pearls. I just want to take a small side quest and give you the opportunity to, well, tell Joe Rogan to go fuck himself with the litter boxes in the classrooms. Let me tell you something. I had a conversation with someone about this, about how other litter boxes in the classroom. And then I pointed out that no, there weren't. There was one, but it was for an actual cat. You know, it wasn't for someone who said they were a cat and look, I said I was fucking optimist prime when I was okay kids kids say wild shit all the time. All right, like we say some dumb ass shit, okay. I cannot take so I can't take an adult that says, well, my 12 year old said they were an octopus and I believe it. I can't take that seriously. Like, okay, cool, the kid says they're an octopus. Great. Yes, you got to make sure you get some industrial strength cleaner for all the ink. I don't know what the fuck tell you. Like, let your kid do what they want to do. Let them explore how they want to explore shit. But that's one of the things that fascinated me so much about furries is especially because the internet was coming up. It gave them an outlet to explore these things. They gave them an outlet to explore kink on their own. Sure. While we were organizing through Yahoo groups and whatnot, they had entire sites built upon the idea that you could make art and tell stories and do whatever you wanted with these characters. And they were exploring kink on their own for better and for worse. You know, it's like a lot of us when we didn't have someone in the community and we were kind of trying to figure things out. You know, we sort of we did the best that we could and as safely as we could astoundingly, the furry community is also incredibly good at policing themselves. They are incredibly good at it. The moment that someone turns out to be a predator or someone turns out to be unsafe, they are called out and keel hauled essentially. It is nuts how good they are policing themselves. They're not perfect by any stretch, but what group is why do you think the furry community is so much better at that than other kink communities. I think it's because of the the amount of publicity that they've had and the amount of allegations they've had to shake because of it. So when in the 90s, especially in the 2000s, I remember I can visually remember news reports about furry conventions about these weird adults who want to dress as animals and talking about the deep, the dark secrets that go on, you know, the pet auctions that happen and whatnot, but it's all consenting adults. But they were drug into the light by news outlets by the internet. They were they were forced into the light. And as a result, now all of a sudden they have to be so much better at what they do. They have to be so much better at their presentation. They have to they have to really police themselves because there are like there are pedophilic furries out there. It's just the nature of the game when you have a group that large, you know, it happens. But instead of covering for them because of that's our friend and in closing ranks, they expel them because they know they can't they can't hide. There's no hiding. Like they're on blast, almost 24/7. But I think that by virtue of that, they're able to really police themselves. And there's no such thing as, okay, so we joke about old guard and in the ass, right. We joke about it and in the king community. But the reason why it's such a joke is because it's such a problem. And I think people don't realize that it does exist. It's just not what you think it is. You know, we think of it as as some kind of exclusive club when it's really just people covering for each other because they're friends. Or they've been around for a long time and they have seniority or they have some sort of they hold events or something like that. So because of this hierarchy that we kind of adhere to in MS and in DS and King in general, we we often find ourselves unable to call out the bad behavior and get it and take care of it because they're in a position of leadership there and elder in the community or this and the other, right. With furries, it's what different. There is no real hierarchy. No one is better than the other person because of their position or how long they've been doing this. It's just these are people just trying to live their lives and trying to do it makes them feel good and and to build a safe community. And so because of that lack of authority and without that lack of structure, they are able to do it way more effectively. Gotcha. In what other ways does the furry community parallel the King community? A lot of what we talked about is, you know, that freedom of expression, that ability to be your authentic self. Because the furry community was a lot of people who were kind of on the fringes of society and were kind of just people who didn't seem to fit in. They already live sort of alternative lifestyles. I think they fit perfectly with King. There is the the Venn diagram is nearly a complete circle. I'm not saying every king sir is a furry, but most furries are kingsters. And it's just this, it's just this intersection and I think it's because of that freedom to express yourself and that freedom to be this other this person that you want to be allows them to explore King can allows them to be kinky. There's also the fact that, you know, it was a relatively small group. It's a it's not a big one. They've had their moments of infighting just like kink has, you know, there was there was a whole movement in the furry community called the burned furz. And this was a sort of puritanical sect that came out that said that we shouldn't have pet auctions. We shouldn't do this. We shouldn't do that. All of the looed characters that you come out as, you know, you shouldn't do this. And it was in response to a lot of extreme examples. So it was under it was an understandable response, but it was just done in such a such a wild way that that was a massive call out to people who were just trying to live their life. And it eventually unfortunately got adopted by more alt right people that were kind of attached to the community people that weren't in the community, but they thought that, you know, furries are all degenerates who should be burned. So it got adopted by some not so great people eventually it died off. But you know, we've had the furry community has had its fair share of things that have gone wrong, not so much to the extreme that kink that the larger kink community has because let's face it. We've had stone wall we've had shit burned and thrown into landfills. But we've we've had our runins with Puritans and Puritanical culture. You know, we've had our runins with moralists, I guess you could say, the moral majority, which is the same as furries. So there's a lot of intersection there. And just the community at large, the whenever we kind of come together on something is beautiful also. So with a lot of kink, there's we talk about, you know, they're being no true way. There's no true way of being a furry either, you know, you don't need the elaborate costume or anything like that. You don't even you don't really need anything you just need to just an idea needs to be there, you know, a feeling needs to be there. And I think that's that's what that's what kind of makes it beautiful. You mentioned of members of the alt right in the furry community. I remember something being a stink a few years ago about Nazi furries. It's that's like my memory is the vaguest on that is that a thing am I imagining it? You are you are not imagining it much like a lot of larger groups. You're going to find people of all walks of life in them because you are dealing with younger people. And you're dealing with younger people who are trying to seek validation in any way they possibly can sometimes even the bad attention is good attention for them. So you have people who take these horrid ideologies and co-op them for attention. And it gives them validation because now people are paying attention to them. Now people are giving them the attention they so desperately want. And you know, and there are people who embrace them because of this ideology that it that by its very nature is self destructive. You know, especially if you are furry because you're one of the people that would be in the chambers, let's say. But I think it's because of how large the community is and how young people can often feel ostracized that they turn to things like this to to get the attention that they want. They exist, but I can I can say by and large the community has ostracized them as they should. And I want to say that a lot of as they should exactly but I also want to say that a lot of them probably at some point realized that they they're cleaning to an ideology that is just purely hateful. And have have gone away from it in some way, shape or form. I hear it's sort of I can't it to how most of the. A lot of anti trans people that I well a lot of trans people that I spoke to were at some point anti trans. And it was because of that repression and these conflicting feelings that it drove them deeper until they realized, oh, I see, I am this. And they realize that, oh, okay, I just need to. I need to come out of the I need to come out of the dark and and and actually accept me for who I am. Internalized transphobia internalized homophobia is very much a thing and something I do deal with on a fairly regular basis in my work with Michael. But I don't understand how anybody could be a member of any kink community and have right wing beliefs let alone alt right beliefs. Free Nazis sounds like a joke. Oh, yeah, 100%. Well, it's it's we're talking about if we're talking about kink, we're talking about the very people that would have under the third right that would have been. You know, put into prisons for deviancy, you know, we're talking about this and I it's wild to me that I have I have met kinksters at our far right or or on that fringe. Yeah. And I'm just like you guys understand like you're your part you're part of that list right. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's weird and with with with furry Nazis, it's one of those things that just it's so absurd. It has to be real. But there's no way you can make something like that up if you did you would you're just really creative on a level that I wish I could be. That's fair. Well, let's switch topics because I think we've given furry Nazis way more attention than they deserve absolutely. I agree. You do have a first owner yourself. I do. I do have a first owner she is on my fat life, there are two photos. One of them is done by a friend of mine who made it for my class whenever I told them I was doing a class on furries they were like we need to do this. And the other one is made by another friend of mine in the king community, Rebels, Savant, he did an amazing job. I actually I met him at MSC. And I approached him with a hundred dollar bill and said, please, please make me part of my first owner. He graciously accepted. I was pleased as punch. But yeah, I do have a I do have a first owner. She is a she is a gray fox lady with a witch's hat and purple hair. Very cool. That's awesome. So how does one go about creating selecting their first owner? It varies from person to person. I think that selecting a first owner you kind of go with what you feel like. Like what what animal? What animal do you like? Like what if you are going to create something? What do you associate yourself with in terms of? Flatta puts fuck yeah. All right. So then you have to you have to real. So then like what does that look like to you? Like do they are they kind of alternative? Like you sort of mesh two things together, right? You kind of incorporate a bit of yourself, but also maybe a part of yourself that you wish was better or or more like maybe you wish you were like more muscular like maybe this is a jacked ass platypus, right? Like whether like a like a bikers helmet and school sunglasses. And then like how much of the animal do you want them to have? Do you just want them to be animalistic in the face and the rest of them is kind of humanoid? Do you want them to walk around on the flippers? Like how do you want them to look? It's almost like creating a mask shot in a way, but it's a mascot for yourself. So you take that association you just run with it like for me. I think foxes are cute. I really like them as an animal. I've done a spirit walk and I was guided by a fox. So it's just the animal that I chose and I wanted them to represent me and my alt self. And I dress in a very kind of goth way. I have a very goth aesthetic when I dress feminine. And so I wanted them to represent that. And so that's why I got the witches hat, the colored hair, the boost the A, massive fur tits, you know, the works really. A lot of the fur suits I see are the fur is not colors found in nature. Is there any symbolism to that like the hanky code, their symbolism there? Or is it just personal preference? I like this color best. Usually it's personal preference. There are certainly some furries that use the color as a representation that means something to them or means something broader. You certainly have furries that they'll they'll coat themselves in like bisexual flag colors or trans flag colors or something like that. But by and large, I think it's just this is a cool color and I like it. Gotcha. Cool. What are some of the more common furry animals? What are some of the strangest or most unusual furry animals that you have seen out there? Oh, let's see here. I mean, foxes are all sluts. Let's just put that out there. And I speak from experience. Wolves are very popular. Dogs, cats, the cat girl is a very is very much a meme. I've seen deer, fawns, actually at conference the 1989 one, the very first one. I believe there was that that was a fawn that was dressed up, which is very unique, but you've seen I've seen mice. I want to say like there is there is ebras that I've seen some of the wildest ones though are like whenever you get someone who is like more into dragons. Or their scalies. They're into lizards, you know, because then you get into sometimes people will do body modification where they'll like split their tongue into stuff like that. Like that's really that's really out there and wild to me. I don't know if I've ever seen anything that's like strange where it's haunted my dreams. I know, but I've definitely seen some stuff that I'm like holy shit, that's cool. And it extends outward from just normal animals because you've got people who will dress up like Pokemon and they identify with Pokemon. And stuff like that, you know, it's it's all about your freedom of expression, you know, maybe you want to be a sexy Pikachu. I mean, that's a thing. I know I do. That's a Halloween costume I've seen being sold out there. That's a Halloween costume I've seen crumpled on the corner floor. So there are furries out there that aren't mammals. Oh, yeah, for sure. You have the so when we're talking about furries, it's kind of the umbrella term for a lot of other subgroups. You have like scaleys who are more reptilians, not in the conspiracy theory sense. I should wish more in just the the idea that they are they represent lizards, dragons, etc. And you have other kin who they feel the spiritual attachment to the animal rather than it's just part of themselves it is who they are it is who they identify with, you know, they are this this animal, like they're an antelope and stuff like that. Which is where a lot of misconceptions like the going back to the litter in the in the classroom. That's where a lot of misconceptions come from is is is other kin. But it's more of a spiritual connection than anything. Let's see here. There are a lot of there are just a ton of subgroups out there for furries, but those are some of the two major ones. I think I've seen more more folks try out how I put this different aspects of like their fur persona or like if they're trying to figure out like is something going to work for them when they're creating like their fur suit or if they're trying to figure out this that or whatever. Yeah, that was it like they'll they'll try it out at like non furry places such as like a run fair. Because they're like okay let's see if this is going to work because if I can hang with a run fair all day then you know I'm pretty certain I can you know hang at a convention for the entire weekend or you know this is going to work and this is going to feel good. And does it match what I'm trying to you know portray out there. Yeah, which is which is honestly another parallel is that that journey sure you know I'm certainly not the same person in kink that I was when I started. I hope not no offense, but you know we're all supposed to learn and grow. For sure no like look I that person I don't know who they are sure but I'm not them anymore but much like furry is like they evolve over time sometimes they don't sometimes they're they're pretty happy with who they are and who their first sonar represents but even then styles change you know I'm sure if I made a first sonar back in the early 2000s they would have been wearing some jinkos. That's a name bread I haven't heard in a while. Bring back jinkos I'm saying. No, those are comfy. I could fit an entire super Nintendo in my pants that's where I want to be. This is why we failed is a society. We no longer make huge pants. Look you weren't just fitting an entire super Nintendo in there you could fit like you know super Nintendo Xbox and three of your friends at least. I could fit a small man in there which is what I need sometimes I just need a small person to fit in my pants. As far as the fur suits go with furries most of them are custom made correct I mean there's not like a catalog to go out there and buy yourself a fur suit is there. I think there are some websites that are dedicated to creating or renting out fur suits. There are certainly a lot of artists out there especially these days who you can commission to make the suits. If you don't want to go that route and you're feeling adventurous of course you can make your own. And I know that there are places like Michaels and such where you can get foam. That you can use to build the the heads and the paws and whatever else you need. There is a lot of skill and love that is involved whenever you're talking about fur suits because it it's definitely a thing that they wear all day. And that's for the full the full suit right right. And you've also got like cooling vests that they wear underneath they need a handler sometimes to make sure they're not going to like ram into somebody or someone wants a picture they can like get a tap on the shoulder or something. It's wild. It's crazy and just the amount of care that goes into taking care of those suits as well. Because the inside the inside gets boiling to almost oh yeah like it gets so hot in those things and you're basic you're walking around in a swamp of your own making. You just human soup inside of this thing. Yeah I know that's a kink for somebody somewhere. For sure why look why would you do something if you didn't enjoy it and on some level you know I'm sure there is like massacres furs there like I'm not going to wear my cooling vest today. I've been such a naughty little princess. Part me I do have to share before I forget and this goes too far. The best thing that I got to do of helping a friend with making their first suit wasn't even me making their first suit. It was making them into one of the mannequin dummies that you use to like a seamstress would use in order to create. What it's going to do to match their body using duct tape so I got to do the mummification part prior to the making all that's awesome suit so I'm like that is so awesome. I'm like dude I am totally completely like honey. My friend like she's like do you want to help me make another one I'm like honey I am all down for any time that you want to make one of those again you just tell me I will happily wrap your ass. You tell me when and where I am going to show up prearoused. We will be good. Yeah we're going to be we're going to be solid don't you worry. Now there and there is some that's the other thing is with the suits is that in some cases there can be a lot of kind of ritual that goes into them right. I'm like grooming them making sure they're they're good to go they look really nice. There's a lot there's a lot that kind of goes into it. So my friend who who she is very much a furry was talking about that was it she had seen a suit that was for sale somewhere Facebook marketplace something or another like that. The person had put some love into it and she had made the comment that it looked odd and then coming to find out that like there's typically a look that most furries are going for with their fur suits which was like trimming up the fur to make it still looks soft but actually like clean cut. Is that a thing? That I don't know that that could be and it could also just be it's more breathable. And kind of like a personal preference. Kind of I think it is for I think it's something like that would be a personal preference. It's also just you know a matter of self expression. Just how do you perceive the character are they going to be this fuzzy are they going to be more like. So kind of like a preference between and forgive me but this is just the easiest way that my brain kind of associates kind of like a short hair versus long hair cat. Yeah something like that. Your best guess what does the average fur suit cost? Oh god. That sounds like arm and leg. Well probably a small mortgage. Oh damn. So we're talking about handmade items. Sure. That need to be made to certain specifications if we're talking about a bigger person if we're talking about. If you want something inside of it that's going to keep you cool. It's an investment. You're you're easily talking about in something that's into the thousands of dollars. Now if you're making it yourself a lot of that gets cut out. So you need to buy the materials and whatnot. And you also need to make sure that it's going to stand up to the heat of your own body as well as the heat that is on the outside. But I think you're still looking at about a thousand dollars easily. For a full suit. Now not everyone goes for the full suit. Some people they're just cool with making ahead and then just putting on a maid's costume. You know that's that's all they need. But you also don't really need the full suit. You can just go out there with you know ears and a tail and. You are your character. So when you have your head or like even a full suit. Curiosity inquiring minds how and the ever living day lights do you clean the inside of it. Carefully fair enough. I've heard things from they they are scrubbed with bleach. I've heard magic erasers work great. There have been people who they will put mothballs in them. Air freshener like a whole ass air freshener. Just stuff like that black ice in there. You're good to go. Smells like you're driving off a cheap lot. I've heard various things just soaked in water like gently rinsing and making sure it air dries. There's a variety of ways that you can clean them. I don't think there's any one way that works the best. It's just depending on how clean do you really want it to be? It's okay with you know it being clean enough where it doesn't stink if you get too close to someone. Do you want to make sure that it doesn't grow fungus? What's your over under on this one? I mean fair I guess it's more of like you know extending the life of your suit. Especially if you invest that much into it and that's your persona. You know where you're able to live your authentic and express your authentic self. You know you want to keep that for as long as possible. So it was just curiosity of like how do you you know work to extend the life of things? Sure but there's also the question of does the suit evolved? Oh okay do you replace parts with other parts? Not to get into a furry of theseous argument. Oh you're allowed to. It's okay. I've known people who for whom whenever they're building a suit they do it piece by piece. And as time goes on sometimes those pieces get replaced because they know they can do better. That makes sense too. They can make something better. They can mold a nose to look a lot better. A lot of times for a suites don't get they get worn for maybe two or three years. And then there's some change to it like something gets replaced the inside of it gets replaced or something like that. That absolutely makes sense and it's just a different perspective for me only because you know as a leather person. You don't think of it that way it's care for your leathers for as long as you know humanly possible until literally they either like you know disintegrate because well leather eventually will. Or you are passing it on to you know the next person as gifted leather if that's so how you so choose or you know, however that may be so good. There's no you can pass the you can pass for suits on to others who want them but because of the custom made nature of them usually it's difficult to. Especially if you're if you're depending on body sizes. If you find someone who's got a pretty similar frame to yours you can probably get away with it. I kind of see it is though I don't know how much I would want to walk around in a suit that someone else is worn for that long. Unless that's part of your kink you know I guess like you know I'm down to swap fluids but I think I draw the line in some cases. The only relatable experience I have is in college I was very very briefly a frog mascot for a bar. And yes those costumes were ungodly hot but the only thing worse than that was getting caught outside in the rain in those. Oh for sure. Yeah I can only imagine and I kind of sometimes it makes me think of like Disney. Like y'all make me think about like you know turning those suckers inside out and like you know putting them under UV light for the next 12 hours. I mean whatever whatever gets you by. Whatever keeps the nightmares at bay. I mean the rain was the worst because you couldn't like throw it in the dryer afterwards you just had to hang it and let it air out inside. Right. Yeah. I can't imagine. No. Pretty sure I got beer dumped on me a few times too but I couldn't tell from the fur. The very first the very first individual that I ever met there. So I met them on a pony play weekend and they wanted to introduce their well not their pony persona but their donkey persona which happened to be a furry. And their name was Jack that was Jack the donkey. They were so they were Jack. Yes they were Jack. And I found it interesting that because I had never met anyone who had a persona like that and you know met them in their Jack asked persona well they're donkey persona. And they explained to us that they were nonverbal and it took them some time to be off on their own to get into a head space before they were able to put on their fur suit and their head and be Jack. And I just found that rather fascinating and part of me was like I wonder how many other people you know have to do that or some people are just like no buy zip up and I put my head on and boom I'm just right there and I get it varies from person to person but. It does definitely I feel like you you definitely for a lot of people this is just an aspect of themselves so there's not a lot of hyping up. But yeah no for some it's it's a completely different individual and they need to really focus and get in that head space. I mean at the same time it also sounds you know even to focus to get into that head space allows them a different type of freedom that seems to be okay. Because they are in their suit and in this other aspect of themselves that they might not normally allow themselves to go to at other times. Yeah absolutely. Okay well before we move on to the part of the show we like to call inside the Kingston studio is there anything else you'd like our listeners to know about furries. Hug your local furry and and and take care of them. Pet them if they want it but you know they are people just like us they've just got a little bit more hair on them. So you know just be cool a lot of them are younger people and especially if they come to events like this they've they've learned a lot of things online don't. Don't discriminate just because they're young they've grown up in a way that they might know more than you think they do sure they haven't had the physical experience but the mental experience is most likely there and they've they've had a lot of time and. Opportunity to understand themselves. Gotcha well that's been some great information on furries but now we come to the part of the show where we get to know you a little bit better in our own unique a reverent and slightly bratty way are you game alright. Alright. I'm a Pisces and anal is a plus. Sweet also side quest before I forget when you come across to furry always offer them or water if they are completely in their soup. Oh for god's sake please do. Make sure it's ice cold. Oh yeah. I have learned that from a couple folks that you know while they are trying to keep the magic of everything sometimes being able to have a quiet space to be able to remove their head and get some water. Oh my gosh. There's really something to be said about whenever you're at a convention and that's sultry wolf woman that you've been stalking for a while takes their head off and lights up a cigarette and they're just the burliest man alive. Surprise. And I'm still interested. Which is even better. How deep does that fur trail go? Yes. So first question who is your first ever celebrity crush? Probably Mara Wilson. Matilda for sure. We were both kind of the same age and I was like that's a really cute girl. Fair enough. What is something that you know now that you wish you knew at the beginning of your journey? Is there anyone over 30? What is your secret origin story into kink? I really really liked wrestling something about sweaty men and women grappling each other and binding each other in various ways. I really think that's the reason why I'm so excited about being a celebrity. I'm really sanked to me. And then I learned to masturbate. There. That works. But I get the whole pro wrestling thing. I am working on a class called everything I need to know about kink. I learned from professional wrestling. I was like, "I'm going to be a celebrity." I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. I'm going to be a celebrity. Man, I think I have millions of children were lost into a sock because of that woman. Wow. What? There's nothing wrong with that. Just say it. Just say there was something about a powerful woman. And I was like, "Oh, I see how I feel now." That's very fair. You're turning four shades of red, so I'm going to guess that hit very, very close to home for you. China did porn? Yes. She did. She did. She did. One night in China, I'm just saying. The moment I saw that, I went to the nearest computer and then I got expelled from school. Oh, you needed to know my friend from college. She took a social deviance class and got a pass from their professor to be able to look up porn. Oh, man. The school was able to look up porn for college credits. I should have told him it was for research purposes. That's exactly it. My dick was in my hand though. I don't know if they would have bought it. That's a whole nother thing. He's aware this is for research. Well then. Researching how many times I can do this. Well then speaking of porn, what's the most unique combination of words that you have put together in your porn search? Uh, let's see here. Betty White Massive Cock. I asked you asked that sentence did not end where I thought it was going to end. What did you think it rarely does? What is one thing you'll never do again? I don't know. I was going to say eight guys at the same time, but I kind of want to do that again. So I can never do again, probably vote Republican. That's very fair. Yep. I'm like doing eight guys again. Man, that sounds like you know a really good time. So it was going to be that was going to be the joke answer, but then I'm like, no, I would definitely do that. What's something people would be surprised to know about you that you're willing to share of course? Something that they'd be surprised to know. I don't know at this point. I feel like I'm saying. I feel like I have no idea. I'm kind of an open book. I, oh, something that people might be surprised to know about me. I, uh, I delivered a child. You got stuck in an elevator like in a sitcom? Okay. Legitimately it was an elevator. All right. It was an okay. Yeah. Can I, may I tell you? Absolutely. You have to. All right. Okay. One fine day in the army. I, I used to be a combat medic and I worked in the clinic at Fort Sill. For whatever ungodly fucking reason, they decided that OBE should be on the third floor. Because that's brilliant. And this woman gets on the elevator super fucking pregnant, okay? She has already had her water broken. She is not doing great, but she was there for a routine checkup and they couldn't go to the ER. Oh, geez. She gets on the elevator. I'm just trying to go up to the second floor with a specimen to go take to the lab. And then she all of a sudden goes, oh, fuck. Can braces herself against the walls of the elevator. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. I forgot my plunger at home. Oh, fuck. So she sinks down to the floor and I'm like, ma'am, I'm, I'm a medic. I know what to do. And so after I got done pissing myself, I took my top off and I set it down underneath her and I said, I'm gonna need you to remove your pants. And so she did, and her husband's there holding her, and that child is ready. Oh. That is like part of the head is coming out and I'm like, fuck. I was really hoping, is there a way for me to push you back in so we can just not do this today? No. And I am, so I put my head, my hand on the head, because I don't want it to, I don't know how many kids she's had before, because explosive birth is a thing. And the one thing they tell you not to do is to drop the baby. So I'm trying to guide this little fucker out. And the elevator is open at this point. I tell the husband, please go run, run, please tell them what's happening here. We're trying, we've got the elevators held there, we've hit the alarm, a brigade of nurses come down the way with an OB kit, the whole thing. Meanwhile, I've got half a child coming out of her and she is screaming her head off. I'm screaming my head off. Everything is, everything, everyone's panicking, but it was a smooth birth. Well, that's a positive. Well, as soon as the head rotated and the shoulders are coming out, it popped right out. It popped out, it's screaming, it's crying, it's great, everything's wonderful. You know, we clamp it, I let the nurses take over, the mom is ready to go, you know, the, the, oh, God, what am I thinking? The placenta has come out, like everything's great. As soon as they go down the hallway, I'm standing there, blood and shit all over my uniform top. I've still got a urine sample in my pocket that I'm using. And I'm just, I'm standing there staring at my uniform top that is ruined. It's got anionic fluid and crap and blood. Oh, I'm just like, okay, well, I'm done for the day. I went to the second floor, I dropped things off, I went back downstairs to the clinic where I worked and I went to my sergeant. He says, what the fuck happened to you? Well, and I said, I'm going home. Yeah, yeah, he said, is everyone alive? And I said barely. At least three of us are okay. The fourth questionable. And that's why I'm going home. I took plates, queer, that's why I'm going home. I need to go have a long think about my life choices that have led me to this. My life is a goddamn cartoon. Did they name the kid after you? I hope not. I think they named him like second floor or something like that. And here I am going, wow, you're really lucky that you know, you all had the presence of mine to like, you know, stop the elevator and not like, you know, ride it up and down the different floors. Because you imagine, you imagine some poor, some poor person trying to get on the elevator. Like, I got, I got to go to the pharmacy. Yeah, sorry, sorry, you got to take the next one, dog. Hope you don't need to go to the bathroom. Yeah, you're gonna wait, you stare, sorry. Yeah, it already smells like something someone went to the bathroom in here, so don't worry about it. I'm glad it all, like, you know, ended well. Oh, yeah, it ended, it ended okay. Sometimes I wonder how they're doing. And if they, if they tell the same story, there is this weirdo that was there in uniform and they delivered a kid for us. I wish you would have stopped screaming. Yeah, he's great. More than the baby and the mother combined. All that crying, come on, man. Some decor, at least. Who would play you in a movie based on your life and what's the name of the movie? John Goodman. And the name of the movie is probably something like... Big balls, little problem. That's a terrible joke, but I'm sticking with it. I'm sticking back my guns on that one. That was the best I could do under pressure. If you gave me a lead up, I would probably come up with something better, but you know what, here we are. I'm sure John Goodman is hung, but like... He's gonna need a prosthetic in the movie.[laughs] Oh, what's the worst fashion decision you've ever made? Oh, fuck. Anything having to do with stilettos. Look, I am, I am six foot three and over 300 pounds. I feel like I'm drilling for oil any time. I'm out in stilettos. They need to be chunky heels. Otherwise, I'm just a gorilla. Just drilling holes in the earth. I immediately pictured you in stilettos wearing the gincoes from earlier. Yeah? You like what you see? I mean, if that's what you want, we can make this happen. They're going to say it. I still got my disc man. I can pull that out too. Do that with one of those shirts that Guy Fieri wears? Oh, yeah, the bowling shirts. Yeah, absolutely. You know, with all the flames on it? And here I am going. Look, I'm just going to be jealous that you know he could wear and walk in stilettos because I'm, I'm, I'm only five three and I'm like, you know, take one step and fall over like, you know, an awkward baby giraffe. That's, that's how I am in stilettos. I can wear, I can wear big heels, but they got to be chunky ones. They got to be as chunky as I am. Stilettos can't do it. I'm pretty sure I twisted mine and everyone else's ankle the first time I did it. Like my neighbor was suddenly like, oh, what the fuck is when I tried? I mean, that's fair. All right, time for the reverse. You know, you get to ask us any question you want. The only catch is nobody can have asked us it already. Okay, Mary fuck kill. Harriet Tubman. Cthulhu. And Timothy Shalame. Actually in that order for me. Oh, yeah, okay, I can respect it. You know what, for whatever reason, I just think Harriet Tubman would be crazy in bed. You are sure. Certified fucking freak. What if you're married, you can still like, you know, still have the freak in the bed. But that's not how the game works. I understand. I make my own rolls on that. Final two questions. Which favorite curse word? I'm not talking to you. And then my favorite question to ask, if you had to have sex with a muppet, which muppet would it be and why? Gonzo. Gonzo is the freakiest muppet that exists. But he is also a gentleman. Yes. And he's going to know how to treat you afterwards. You're going to do some weird shit. And it's like, you're going to do some definite weird shit. And it's going to involve a chicken. Oh, for sure. It's going to involve a chicken. You know, like, if you're not into cloaca, I don't know what to tell you. Thanks for missing out. But you know what? He's going to stroke my hair afterwards. And I'm for it. On that note, if somebody wants to contact you or follow you on social media, what's the best way to do that? The best way to do that is going to be my pet life. You can find me at Foxy.ly. L-E-I-G-H. Definitely follow me there. If you want to contact me, throw some DMs my way. Feel free to slide right in there. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs. I'm going to do some DMs.